RIFF067 - Tool - Undertow

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We'll be right back.

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We'll be right back.

1:00

No, I do.

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I do.

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Of all the people I know, it's like, who's got a hot water bottle?

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It would be you.

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It's not a hot water bottle.

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What is it?

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It's just going to make you laugh.

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So I've got a bit man flu, so I'm a bit like griff gritty.

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You are gruff.

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So it's called a warm worm.

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And it's like a leg.

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Really?

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It's like long.

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It's like a metre long.

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And it's like that thick.

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And you fill it up with hot water.

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Yeah.

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And then you...

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You could like cuddle it.

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Yeah.

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So then I call a hot water bottle.

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Like a massive warm appendage.

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Yeah, you can only get like a hot water bottle gets you warm in one bit, doesn't it?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But you get a whole metre of warmth.

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Yeah, I get really cold feet.

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Yeah.

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Because I'm a 70-year-old woman.

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And so what I do is I have my warm worm and I fill it with boiling.

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It's a disease.

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You know, the big warning.

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Don't do boiling.

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Do not use...

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Because I put boiling water in it.

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Yeah.

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And then what I do is I put it like down near my feet.

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And then as my feet warm, then I slowly kind of move it about a little bit.

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But that's what I've not used it yet, but I'm a bit close.

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Is that like when you're officially kind of like, right, it's now autumn?

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Yeah, it's when my feet hurt.

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Yeah.

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You know when I get into bed and I'm like, oh, my feet hurt.

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So I go and get my warm worm.

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And then the whole family laugh.

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That's circulation, isn't it?

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Yeah.

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What's wrong with your circulation?

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Why is your circulation like that?

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Rubbish.

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I think it's because I've spent 50 years sitting on my arse.

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I do do running and things, so I'm not like terrible.

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And I'm more like, you know, I'm quite capable.

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But I find when I get into bed, I get really cold.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And I don't like that.

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But I am like a cat.

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I'm just like a cat.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So you have your warm worm.

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Yeah.

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I just, I don't, yeah.

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I don't like dogs.

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I don't like other people.

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There's another confession.

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Yeah.

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Which is that I took your laminator virginity tonight, didn't I?

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We've, yeah, my little boy has got a homework.

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And now that this is, so he's got to give his homework in tomorrow.

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It's Monday.

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So what time did you receive this?

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I was just heading out of the house to see you.

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And he went, oh, have we got a laminator?

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I go, what?

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Oh, have we got a laminator in the garage?

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He goes, no, we haven't.

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Well, I need to laminate this.

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Can you get it laminated?

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I can find it's like eight o'clock on a Sunday.

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I mean, what?

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And then I messaged you and I said, have you got a laminator?

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And you went, yeah.

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So we laminated something.

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We did.

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We laminated something.

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It's dead good.

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It's interesting, isn't it, lamination?

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It's dead good.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I feel that you're laminating everything now.

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Oh, God.

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Yeah.

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I want to go and laminate everything.

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If you need anything laminating, send it in and we'll do it.

3:42

We should point out that we're Rufology.

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Rufology.

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We are Rufology.

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And we are.

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Four minutes.

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Four minutes in.

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We're Rufology.

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I'm Neil.

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Yes, I'm Chris.

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And welcome.

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Welcome.

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This week.

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We're doing another Maynard.

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Maynard.

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James Keenan.

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He says Maynard.

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Maynard.

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Maynard.

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Maynard James.

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That's what he says.

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Okay, Maynard.

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We say Maynard.

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I'd say Maynard.

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Maynard.

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I wouldn't even think of going Maynard.

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Maynard.

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And yeah, so we're doing Undertow.

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Yeah.

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Because we had a fight last week, didn't we?

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About which one we're going to do.

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Yeah, it was hard.

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And then you won.

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Well, we tossed some keys, didn't we?

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Yeah, that's the way we fight.

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And the thing is, my favourite tour record is Lateralist.

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Yeah.

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But that's 2001.

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That's illegal.

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And our albums have to be 25 years old.

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And we're not there yet.

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Next year?

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Next year?

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We'll come back and do it.

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Yeah, next year we could do Lateralist.

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Because it's interesting.

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I think it's an interesting check.

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Because although, like, I mean, tall to tall.

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Yeah.

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But what I will say is that they, there was definitely a change.

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Because I messaged you in this week, because I messaged you in this week, and I said, this isn't as weird as I remember it.

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yes that's true they did get more weird yeah um so so um even though they did get a piano and

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smash it and then shoot it with shotguns yeah well so i was just trying to think the lineup

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changed didn't it so this one the bassist was um uh demore wasn't it and then that changed to

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uh justin chancellor yeah i think and then but it's weird it's like the

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the the band that so last week we did perfect circle and that was later we did med and arms that

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was that was like later that was the back end of the 90s yeah so we're back in like 93 now this is 93

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yeah that like it's interesting when you get up to 2001 for lateralist tool tool sound to me like a

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much more competent band and that's not to say this doesn't no sound competent but they

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they just seem to get like like better sharper and it's it's it feels to me like they like here

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they're experimenting and they're doing some really cool stuff and they're doing stuff with like

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soundscape isn't it yeah this is soundscape as they move on it turns into like music maths a little bit

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it does but you can't so like there are bits in here where i think oh that sounds weird yeah yeah

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time signature bits yeah but you're like you're not like i don't know it doesn't feel it doesn't

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feel like wrong no or anything no no no it feels like well that feels a little bit weird yeah by the

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time you get to lateralist it it doesn't feel weird no it is weird yes you know the time signature is

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weird but it doesn't sound it so unless it's tall unless somebody tells you yeah that's a weird time

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signature yeah yeah lots of people would just be like i don't i don't get it it's just it's just

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it's just all like that yeah okay i get i get that it you know i get that it's not acdc yeah

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yeah but it's just like proggy yeah weird proggy stuff right it doesn't sound weird whereas here

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there are bits and where the times like it's oh that feels a bit not jarring is the wrong word for it but

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it's like it feels like by the time they get to lateralist they're able to muck about with these

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weird time signatures and do odd stuff yes yeah and make it sound like a a single yeah yeah yeah it's like

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oh you know i think they're experimenting and trying to figure out where they are

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yeah um but i think the thing that makes this special the reason i'm quite pleased that we did

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this is that like 1993 yeah like like it was it was the back end of nirvana was it so yeah so so

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you've just gone through um yeah so you've just gone through nirvana yeah and you're kind of in this

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like post grunge yeah yeah world you're in like so alt rock was like pearl jam and stuff kind of

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getting big but like heavy music chaos ad yes came out carcass heart work morbid angel did covenant

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yeah um death did individual thought patterns typo negative nirvana did in utero yeah um

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um siamese dream yeah uh and anthrax did sound of white noise which you know because they're all of

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those a thick big thick thick chunky yeah yeah yeah stuff and this is this is quite thin sounding

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isn't it in comparison but the other thing about this is this like proggy yeah right now proggy music

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in 93 yeah was widly guitars yeah it was dream theater it was that long yeah it was like

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all that and then you had if you had a drum kit you had like a million drums yes so it was always like

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and that was proggy right yeah but then tour came along and and and with this they were soundscapey

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yeah the the songs were proggy not because of like virtuoso yeah but because the the structure of the

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song was bonkers yeah yeah and it's riffy yeah but it's but it's not like acdc no no no no it's got

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this kind of like uh i don't know it's like driving isn't it it's kind of it's like you know

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like i love watching you play when when you play you you're you're it's like your whole body will

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play and you kind of ebb and flow with the song right and it's like that it's this it's not even

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the bits that are like staccato yeah in in undertow it still still flows yeah yeah i know it sounds

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weird what you're saying but i know exactly what you mean it doesn't stop and start does it it's not

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like um i'm trying to like periphery or yeah yeah yeah you know these bands that they're a bit like

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being like uh i don't know i've been punched in the face it's kind of like yeah yeah it's not that

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genti kind of thing it's no it's not the genti no it's a liquid it's like it feels like it's flowing

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yeah it's not jagged at all is it no there's no part of this is jagged it's fuzzy it's like a warm

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worm that's what this is that's the right word for it it's kind of fuzzy it's you know we did

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mere de noms last week and it's got that's layer on layer on layer that's like this kind of um um

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you know like you know those french cakes what do they call them french fancies no not french fancy

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angel cake no but they're french but you know they do these things and they're called like they're

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they're like every other country than france they're like they're like layers thin tiny thin

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wafer thin layers wafer thin layers but there's like 100 like like 30 wafer thin layers i've never

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had this what you're talking about somebody's gonna write in and say it's a thing right yeah yeah

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mere de noms like that yeah it's these wafer thin layers yeah of things and when you bite into it

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all together it's like oh that's amazing yeah yeah right this this is no marble cake no layers of like

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layers of rock eventually you'll need to go for a wee in a bit and i'll look it up

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um it begins with m yeah i've seen it on a pretentious cooking show

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um but this isn't this is like it's weird to me this like this so undertow it doesn't it it feels

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less less layer-y less stuff but it's still very madeira no no where's madeira's from portugal

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oh is it i'm saying every other country um but anyway this this this i don't know how i don't

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know quite how how many um like tracks this was recorded over but it doesn't feel quite it's quite

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live isn't it it's like it's like the four guys in the room playing together yeah yeah uh yeah i think

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that's what that separates the the those two records for me so murder noms feels like this kind of

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exquisite layer after layer after layer this feels like a live performance it's got this yeah yeah

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it's got this yeah melt meal foie meal foie is it mel foie yeah is that what it said yeah yeah

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meal i've never heard of that in my life well you're from from from south derbyshire oh it's that sort

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of cake you see what i mean the layer wafer thin yeah yeah yeah like this that's it yeah imagine each

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one of those is a track yeah chris yes just show me a picture of a cake yeah meal foil or whatever

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they will be like one one of at least one of our listeners will be from france just like or canada

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and speak french they speak very good french yeah they they will be unimpressed with this bit yeah

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me fui

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do you know like well half of our listeners will be googling what what how do you spell that

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hang on oh i i'm on google so i can pronounce it what was it m e i l l e four oh foie foie meal foie meal foie meal foie or meal foie yeah or meal free oh i like meal foie the best whatever but oh do you know what it means

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oh this is this actually does it mean i know we tangent is layered cake no no even better it goes

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back into exactly what you're talking about listen to this oh go on it translates to

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thousand sheets or thousand leaves oh so it's like it's like layers of leaves yeah

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maynard will be listening to this going dickhead comparing my album to a cake

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but i did sorry about that dude uh but but it but it is it feels

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you know uh uh medinoms had got this like exquisite layering going on yeah yeah this feels like a live

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record it feels like this is kind of um you know like you say it's got that delicate kind of soundscape

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to it there's space in there yeah um there's like there's interesting it has got it's still got that

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tall rhythmic i know we're talking about yeah it's got the tight it's still got the tight rhythmic stuff

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tightly miked vocals as well yes yeah so they're full yeah there's not loads of reverbs it's quite dry

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tightly yeah that's the tall sound the guitars are tight i'm blurting loads tonight sorry

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it is that's tool yeah tool is bone like mostly bone dry there's not loads of effects and reverbs but

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at the time this is a big old rock if you know as i'm reading down these albums uh uh sepultura's

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chaos ad yeah the drum sound in there is really big and yeah yeah kind of roomy and and stuff right

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and carcasses heart work that's got you know they're big sounding records yeah yeah yeah and this is

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tight with his tie isn't it this is quite quite dry yeah it's kind of like hardcorey in tonality

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yeah it's kind of got this um but i think that's kind of what gives this record its tone because it's

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got a menacing tone to it although it's kind of quite it's not jaggedy like slipknot um but like it's

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it's got a tone to it like it's got like this kind of hardcore yeah tone to that kind of dry you know

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when they're like i'm punk when they dry it right up and it's kind of got this do you know what i mean

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it sounds quite nasty sounding yeah it's just not quite that dry but it's yeah it's not it's not kind of

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full of reverb and no no it's got a it's got an interesting sound to it i think i mean

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produced of course by sylvia massey yeah um and it's not very often i have to just point this out

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it's not very often we say a female name when we're talking about production because it feels like a very

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male dominated world to me production and mixing and all that yeah i think you're right i think metal

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is do you remember we we had a radio show and we were being tasked to play more female

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music yeah um and it occurred to me when when we were getting there i mean there are some really

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big female names in metal it's not like there aren't any but they're massively outnumbered yeah

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you know there's this there's significantly more is this quite a male dominated thing i don't know

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whether that's you know just there are more more blokes like metal or whether it's just you know

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music in general is yeah yeah he's biased that way but you dead right and especially production

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yeah it's incredibly rare to to get that but she's done some like i mean her list is it's unbelievable

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bonkers unbelievable this was her first breakthrough yeah right so 1993 undertow this was the first one

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she did their ep as well so they did an ep called opiate before this i think there was an ep before

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that okay yeah yeah and i can't bloody remember it's on set of numbers like 262 blah blah blah blah

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do you know what let me i'll look in a bit there is there is oh no hang on i did put in a tag hang on

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uh yeah 72826 it was released on cassette by toolshed music in 1991 so that suggests it's toolshed music

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is probably their own yeah they just got a load of tapes copied yeah then the rest went out on zoo

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yeah yeah yeah um but i wanted to look so sylvia massey um if i look at her um because you were saying

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before that her like the iconic desk of the sound city sound yeah that's her desk yeah yeah yeah i

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didn't i i don't know whether uh because in the in the documentary from um you man dave growl who i

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don't know whether we're allowed to like anymore but he's i think it's pretty cool so he he does that

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and all of the desk all of a lot of that hardware was hers yeah yeah yeah um let me go i'm just going

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to go through some of the stuff right that she did so um so she did a bunch of stuff back from she

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started in 1984 where she was an assistant engineer then a co-producer in 86 for um for sea hags uh then

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she did a whole bunch of stuff in um so she did femme fatale she did joe satrian is surfing with the

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aliens it's incredible isn't it um exodus pleasures of the flesh in 87 um and then as i look through here

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she had oh some of the biggest stuff more fun stuff so shake your money maker in 90 yeah that's yeah

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but she's assistant engineer yeah so she's an assistant engineer yeah yeah yeah and then um

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there's a couple of here where she's done some mixing so she she mixed a seal um track and then

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as i'm looking down her list i think this uh for 93 opiate is the production yeah she's the that's the

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first proper one that she's the uh producer for but then as you go through that list so she did divine

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intervention in 95 yeah slayer slayer yeah uh skunk and nancy paranoid and sunburnt in 95 great records

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um she did tom petty and the heartbreakers rem's road movie in 96 um deftones uh can't even breathe

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single in 97 um then she did pavements uh she was co-producer on that one but then there's like

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rage against the machine oh this is for the tibetan freedom concert she kind of engineered

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all of all of that kind of stuff smashing pumpkins um uh credits for for various singles and she's just

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tons like system of a down marmalade um seven dust singles it's just mad yeah yeah just been around

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been involved been present got stuff done yeah she was yeah i mean still is i mean she's still got

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credits up to 2023 yeah and i think the interesting thing about her approach to production is from what

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i've been listening through this this stuff these interviews and and reading about it it's more about

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getting the band in like a really creative place yeah and it's not just about recording music and tracking

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music is actually about kind of getting the band in a particular state um i think that during the

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recording of undertow we were discussing how to make the world's most obnoxious sound and uh i threw out

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some ideas of getting an old piano getting getting a piano and lifting it up to the top of a

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building with a crane and then dropping it and recording that and that should be a really

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obnoxious sound uh so i went about trying to find a crane company that would do it for for us i knew

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where to get the pianos these pianos the the uh they're relics that can't be repaired they're totaled

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basically uh so many of these old pianos can't be repaired so you can get them for you know uh just

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fifty dollars or such so um but i couldn't get a crane company to to actually do this lifting and

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dropping so i i bought two two uh pianos we pushed them into the the dock at the back of uh grandmaster's

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studio and um and we just set out to make the most obnoxious noise ever and whatever would happen with

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it we we were going to use it or not use it i don't know we we didn't know what it would be like

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um i uh wanted them to be performing while they were smashing it i provided everybody with uh sledge

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hammers pickaxes and um there was something else everyone had safety glasses and yeah it was exciting

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and then danny brought his sawed off shotgun so shooting holes into the piano uh there were two pianos and

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and uh and uh yeah they were destroyed it was spent a whole a whole afternoon having fun doing that and

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uh and there is some footage out there of that that whole day that was super fun and then amazingly uh

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we were able to to sequence that into what is disgustipated on the end of the record and maynard

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uh performed a uh speaking part over it and uh uh the sequencing was done we took all the sounds and i

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and and i did little samples of different sounds and sent them over to my friend um eric anist

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uh his name is uh his stage name is static and um he put together this performance piece

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that was on the end of the undertow record i think it came out great it's super weird though i mean it's

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like you know it's like the angel of the war came out of the gate snatching me up from my place of slumber

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and took me on high and higher still until we moved through the spaces between the air itself

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and he bumped into a vast farmland of our old midwest

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and as we descended cries of impending doom rose from the soil

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one thousand nay a million voices full of fear and terror possessed me then and i begged angel of

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the lord what are these tortured screens and the angel said unto me these are the cries of the carrots

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the cries of the carrots you see reverend maynard tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust

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it's a spring for my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers

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and roared hear me now i have seen the light they have a consciousness they have the life they have

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the soul damn you let the rabbits wear glasses save our brother's gonna get an amen

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can i can i get a hallelujah

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about

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remotely musical

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no

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but he's about

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the performance of this getting the artist in the right space

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yeah to produce their best stuff

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yeah you know it's not like

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um you know your bob rocks

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yeah

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um who

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you know were um meticulous about about getting the thing perfect and it down right or not lang even

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this kind of you know you've got to play a million times until it's perfect

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yeah he he you know um rick rubin was far more about like you know it's it's uh what was that he's got that brilliant quote hasn't he about you know the the best take is the one where you are almost out of control you only just managed to get it done that's the take that we want kind of thing that we want kind of thing.

28:25

that's the take that we that we want kind of thing and it was it was about this um it was about the art it was about you know it's not about it being you've just summarized it perfectly it's not about the being to click it's not about being perfect to the computer saying oh that was but yeah on you know it was it was about this um expressive nature of getting getting it out and and the and the art of you know the song so yeah yeah as soon as i saw that those two were connected

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connected yeah yeah that's it yeah that is yeah she's come from the school of rick rubin effectively or at least kind of they were in the same space yeah i'm exploring the same yeah exactly i think that i think that he and her just were like you say on the same wavelength yeah and that rick you know rick rick was never going to work with death leopard he's never going to be able to figure that out yeah um

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um but bands like tall it was able to you know get behind this um this the expression that they

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were trying to pull through but but without getting into the you know the the deep the

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technical details yeah of that getting them into a space but the thing i hadn't realized and and it

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really connected a lot of dots for me with this record is the fact that she did try to do a lot

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of it live yeah a lot of it was kind of stand up and done in a live space yeah yeah get the band

29:43

feeling right then hit the button yeah whereas you know we we talked about murder noms last week

29:48

for me that was not no like if pad's just playing all those violins yeah yeah she ain't gonna do that

29:55

live in one take you know that's multi-layer that's have like 12 violins on an arm but it but it's

30:00

interesting isn't it it's still they've like we talked about last week there is uh this similarity

30:05

there's a tonality where you think oh actually that there is definitely a um you can tell they're kind

30:12

cousins yes do you know i mean yeah and i think some of it's that tightly miked yeah

30:17

maynard's vocals um but but there is definitely something that connects

30:23

where like mad and noms wasn't and and this came from yes yeah even though the the production almost

30:31

like the dna the dna of the sound is different yeah and you know and this this this has got

30:36

quite a live punchy sound to it um you know it sounds it's interesting this this has got almost

30:43

like a um like a demo yeah feel to it you know what i mean it's not that it's like roughly recorded

30:49

but it doesn't sound like super polished no but you have to bear in mind like like hysteria was done

30:54

in 87 which sounded like perfect brian adams was banging stuff out you had like um what adrenalized

31:01

from deaf leper came out in 92 yeah those records sound like exquisite you go back and they're perfect

31:08

yeah there's nothing on them that's a little bit jaggedy or or whatever whereas this has got this has

31:14

got like a um a word it's like a i don't know what the word is it's like a it's raw yeah it sounds

31:23

analog yeah it's got this kind of analog sound to it where you know if you i i i mean this may have

31:28

been done to click but i don't think it was no it doesn't feel like it was done i don't know how you

31:33

would you know the bits where it kind of the timing changes yeah yeah i don't know whether they just do

31:38

that yeah there's no way it's it's they're playing together aren't they yeah they're playing together

31:43

and they're really tight you can imagine you can imagine you can imagine somebody with a metronome

31:47

just just suddenly ramping up going uh but yeah i i it's it's got a cool like uh organic is the word

31:54

i'm looking for yeah yeah yeah it's it you know what i mean it doesn't doesn't feel like there's a

31:59

computer here yeah you know keeping everybody in time kind of thing you kind of like you say you

32:04

kind of get get this feeling like it it evolved that the the track and the song has evolved and

32:09

the timing changes and the structure changes nobody likes to be put in a

32:13

in a pigeonhole of sorts you know but i guess we are kind of kind of metal kind of grunge kind of

32:23

dry a heap slash grateful dead vibe a little bit of steve martin banjo music slipped in there

32:30

so

32:35

so

32:35

so

32:41

so

32:48

so

32:53

so

32:54

so

32:55

so

32:57

so

32:57

so

32:57

there's a

33:09

there's a

33:11

there's a shadow just behind me

33:13

shouting every step i take

33:17

making every promise empty

33:20

pointing every finger at me

33:23

waiting like a stalking butler who upon the finger rest

33:30

murder now the path of my sweet just because the sun has come

33:36

jesus wants to fucking wrestle something but the path of done

33:43

jesus wants to fucking wrestle something but the path of done

33:49

why can't we drink forever

33:55

i just want to stop this forever

34:01

why can't we drink forever

34:07

i just want to stop this forever

34:15

i am just a worthless lawyer

34:30

i am just an imbecile

34:33

i will not complicate you

34:36

trust in me and fall as well

34:39

i will find a center in your life

34:43

i will chew it up and leave

34:46

i will work to elevate you

34:49

just enough to bring it down

34:52

mother mary won't you whisper

34:56

something but the path of done

34:59

mother mary won't you whisper

35:02

something but the path of done

35:05