Therapy? and the rise of UK alt-rock

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I've got it all in

I've got all the things in

You've just done it all

We can go out now

This week we're doing therapies

Therapy question mark

Yeah

We're doing screen major

I have wanted to do

Not just this album

Yeah

But we often cover

Like we cover on the show

These classic albums

And we've been doing kind of scenes

And stuff

So we did like the L.A. scene

The kind of glam and hair metal scene

And we've

Then we went and did a bunch of stuff

Pacific Northwest

And Seattle

And grunge

And kind of that alt rock movement

That came around

But something I've really wanted to do

Like forever

And I just thought

No one's gonna care

It's just like

It's just me

But there was this kind of

Alt hard rock scene

In the UK

In the 90s

Where you had

Band like Therapy

And You're Mighty

And Thunder

And Skunker Nancy

And Gun

You know what I mean

They were just

And Terror Vision

And The Wild Hearts

There were just so many

Of these bands

That were like

Formed part of my

Yeah

Yeah just my teenage years

Yeah

And

I just thought

I really desperately

Want to cover them

And one of the reasons

I really want to do them

Is when I've not listened

I hadn't listened to this album

Yeah

Probably in 20 years

Yeah

And I put it on

Probably about a month ago

Yeah

And I knew every word

Do you know what I mean

You knew every word

Every song

You knew the order of it

And it just all came back

And you just turned it up louder

And louder

And louder

Before you were like

Screaming away at it

Like the energy just

Yeah

I don't know

They're just phenomenal records

But like

People I haven't heard of them

I was talking to people

In my team

And people at work

Yeah

Who?

Yeah

Yeah

Yeah

Do you know what I mean

If you weren't there

If you'd blink

You'd miss it

Yeah

It's one of them

If you were there

And you were into rock music

At the time

Yeah

Like I remember

I think I discussed it

Very briefly last week

And my friend

Ben Lyons

Yeah

From school

Yeah

Was a very

Very good friend

Actually for a long time

And he was like

He had the older brothers

Yeah

And the older brothers

Who listened to

Because we were younger

You see

So this one

We were like

Less than teenagers

At the time

And he

Less than teenagers

Yeah

So we hadn't quite

Got into it

And the

He had older brothers

Who listened to this stuff

So they were

Discovering themselves

And he sort of

Had this byproduct

Of like

This is what

All the bigger boys

Like

Do you know what I mean

Yeah

This is like

This is what

We should aspire

To listen to

There was a little bit

Of that going on

And yeah

Therapy was absolutely

That band

And I remember

Actually I remember him saying

He was the first person

That ever told me

I'm going to go

And watch a gig

I'm going to go

And watch therapy

With my brother

So that was the thing

That I think

I might have made that up

But in my brain

In my brain

That's what I remember

Happened

I loved this album

For

Like it was this kind

Of accessible

But angry

Stuff right

It was

You know

They were

Almost venomous

In places

Kind of punky

In places

But it was really

Accessible

It was kind of

Really

Had this like

Amazing groove

To it

And these amazing

Riffs

And like

And the lyrics

I just thought

Were awesome

I've got to

I've got to

Quote some of

The Screamature

Lyrics

Because I

Like it's

With a face like this

I won't break any hearts

And thinking like that

I won't make any friends

And then

You kind of get that

Screw that

Forget about that

I don't want to hear

About anything like that

And I don't know

It's like

Your beauty makes me

Feel alone

I look inside

But no one's home

I just

Like this album

To me

Is just a

It's an anthem

It was an anthem

For a generation

And you just

Everybody screams

To this

It's a proper

When it comes on

In the car

You just scream

In a way

Like a nutcase

And it's a

It's a mixture

Of like the lyrics

Spoke to

Like teenagers

These lyrics

Spoke to

When you were a teenager

Absolutely

Like

They hit you

And then

Like the

The music itself

Was kind of

So anthemic

Yeah

And that's

Absolutely the word for it

It is

It's

How can something

That is

So grungy

And spiky

And punky

And aggressive

Be so anthemic

And I think

And I think

That's the song craft

Yeah

But it's

There's riffs

Every

Like that

I wanted to play

Like at the start

When we played

That scream major

And normally

I play a bit of an intro

Yeah

And then we start

But I wanted to hear

The whole intro

Because the vocals

Don't come in for ages

No

They've got

There's like

There's three sets of riffs

Before the vocal comes in

How do you write that

Someone sat down in the studio

And just went

That's not a rock song

Yeah yeah yeah

But then made it into

This anthemic rock song

Anyway I just think

It's just astounding

To me this is

Another thing is

Is that Andy Cairns

Have I pronounced that right?

I think so

He interviews so well

Yeah

He's so good

Like when we've done

Sort of interviews

And I've been trying to

Cut up interviews

From like the time

And they're kids

They don't really make any sense

But even then

He was thinking

He was thinking quite deeply

About things

Yeah

You know

It's really interesting

I mean a lot of the interviews

That we're going to use in this

Are from a more recent

More recent set of interviews

But there's a couple

That are from

You know

Right back in that sort of day

And I don't know

He's

I don't know

He's got it

I don't know what it is

But he's just

You know

Remember when we spoke

About Alanis Morissette

Yeah

And we spoke about

Who was it the week after

That we did

And they were very

Oh it was

Skin

Oh Skin

Yeah it was Skin

And they had this kind of

Wisdom in the way they spoke

And the way they sort of

Reflected on things

And you get that exact

Same sort of thing

Of Andy Cairns

Yeah

He's a bit of a thinker

You know

I think so

You got there with a lot

Of the punk bands

Didn't you

Do you know

They kind of came across

As being brash

And kind of

You know

In your face

And irreverent

And didn't care

But actually

When you heard them speak

They were a little bit like

More like professors

Do you know what I mean

There was this dissonance

Between that public persona

Yeah

And then actually

What they were

Yeah

What they were like

One thing

One thing you said earlier

That I've just got to make sure

That I get into the podcast

Is that

You were describing the albums

Yeah

And you were saying

Oh there's a whole load of albums

We're going to do

And they're like

They're like off the roof

And I'm like

What a great

What a great thing that is

What a great term that is

That's in the bank

They are

So there's a lot of good things

About this album

First of all

How long is the longest track

On this album

Oh they're all short aren't they

I was listening to it

Because the thing is

With it

With me

Is that

I'm not

I've never

I don't think I've ever

Listened to the album

Through until this week

Right

And I've always like

Just picked songs

Yeah

And there were some songs

That I'd never even heard

And actually

Become my favourites

So I

You know

You know

Nowhere

And you know

Screamager

Yeah

And you know

Is it Hellbelly

Is it

Yeah

Trigger Inside

Trigger Inside

Of course

Yeah

You get

You get those

But then

Like Turn

Yeah

And

What was the other one

Absolutely hit me like a train

Oh it's gone

Luna

What is it

Lunacy Booth

Lunacy Booth

Yeah

That one

That was

Amazing

Lunacy Booth

Is probably my favourite song

On the album

It's like

It's super short

It's packed

There's no filler

No

It's one of those

That there's like

Oh yeah

Sorry

The point I was going to make

Sorry

Because I got distracted

By my own brain

Was that

After listening to it

All the way through

For that first time

Yeah

By the time

I'd sort of

Check my phone

To sort of see

Where it was

Where I got to

And I was like

Two songs left

Yeah

And it hardly felt like

Any time had passed

You know

It's a

It's a fast

It's a fast record

Produced

By

Chris Sheldon

Now

I'm going to read you

Some albums

That Chris Sheldon did

So he did

Feed a Swim

Oh wow

Gun Swagger

Did this one

My Vitriol Fine Lines

They were great

My Vitriol

Biffy Pyro

2002

Ocean Size

Which Biffy?

Black and Sky

Best album

It's brilliant isn't it

Yeah

Biffy are kind of in that

They're kind of in that

They were Scottish aren't they

They're kind of in that

We did say

An album that is

We did say albums

That have got to be

25 years old

Yeah

For us to cover them

That's 2002

I'd do Black and Sky

It was

Yeah

I'd do Black and Sky

I'd do Silver Chairs

Diorama

I'd do

What was the other one

That I'd love to do

100 Reasons

100 Reasons

Yeah

What else am I thinking

That was in this

It was Incubus

Morning View

Which was a stunner

I'm just thinking of other bands

That were in this

Was it Three Colors Red

Three Colors Red

Yeah

And then you had

I was thinking feeder albums

Was it Polythene

Yeah

Yeah that was a great album

I liked

One of my favourite feeder songs

Was

High

Oh yeah

Oh yeah

Honestly

There's just so

This group

Of bands

Like you say

Are kind of almost

I wouldn't say forgotten

But I don't mean it

No no

It's like you blink and you miss it

It's kind of thing

But I guess what I mean

Is they've not got that

You talk about Pearl Jam

Yeah

And like

You mentioned Pearl Jam

In any room

And somebody would go

Oh I like Pearl Jam

Yeah

But you say therapy

In a room

And people will be like

What

I don't get it

Right

And so it's not that

There aren't any

Passionate fans out there

But just

Like the following

Is not as big as

Yeah

I think it should be

I think this is

It's up there

With like the perfect records

For me

It's just such

An astounding record

And for a lot of these

90s UK

Hard rock records

Yeah

They're just exquisite

Absolutely phenomenal

We did Skunk and Nancy's

Stoosh

Yeah

Did The Prodigy as well

Yeah

You know

They're all quite similar

Here aren't they

Yeah

Yeah

They're all that same

And you know

Skin talked about

That they weren't part

Of Britpop

Yeah

But there was a scene

That they were part of

And this is that scene

That kind of hard rock

None of them were similar

Yeah

None of them were making

Like similar music

No no

They were from different

Areas of the country

Yeah

Ash

Ash 1977 is probably

Another one

Oh yeah

That's a good one

Yeah

Because they weren't

Quite Britpop

They weren't quite there

No they weren't

Manson

Yeah

Mannix

Supergrass

When they got

A bit heavier

I remember seeing

A clip on TV

Of Supergrass

And they looked

About five

Honestly looked like

They'd run away

From their teacher

They looked like

Somebody in a

Hive's jacket

Was about to come

And retrieve them

Come on lads

Stop working

But there were

There were loads

Actually

And another band

That never quite

Saw the light of day

From that kind of era

And they really

Didn't fit

Was Superman

Oh

I don't know

Yeah I like them

A lot

Yeah

Are they British

Yeah I think so

Hey Petrunko

Was there

Yeah

I fell in love with

And that

That's

That's well worth

Listening to actually

It's a bit of a

Bit of a monster

I think we should

Stay in Britain

For the next

Like

Stonehenge

Yeah

But I think we should

Do it for the next

Couple of months

And work our way through

You know

You mentioned the

Mannix

Yeah

I've not covered them

Lindsay's been

Harassing us to do

For years

She's threatened to

Throw fruit pastels

At you next time

She sees you

Live

So

Be glad that

And yeah

You better buy

A bumper packet

Lindsay

Because he gets

Through them

But yeah

I just think

I don't know

I just think

There's so much

Cool stuff

From this era

Yeah

In the UK

That I bet

Loads of our US

Yeah

Yeah

They won't have heard

Won't have heard

So it's kind of

We'll uncover that

A little bit

I bet tons of people

That were there

Have forgotten

About them

Like when I went

Through this

And started to

Pick stuff out

I kind of thought

Oh Gun

Yeah

Or Swagger

And then I remembered

Their Gallus album

Yeah you said about that

I preferred that

It was absolutely phenomenal

You know

And then there are bands

Like I mean

There are the

Like what I consider

The big American bands

Right

So you had like

Def Leppard

Who are still

I mean

I guess after High and Dry

They don't feel like

A British band anymore

No

They acted

They lookeded

They lookeded

American

And sounded like

An American band

Bush

Similar

They were British band

But from London

They're huge in America

They went

They hit the stratosphere

They did

They sounded like

An American band as well

And I think

Although

Was it 16 Stone

Yeah 16 Stone

That was

That was

I would put that

In this bracket

Oh really

That particular album

Yeah

But it did

Yeah I understand

If you listen to it

Next to

The Pearl Jam

And you know

The Sound God

And if you listen to it

Side by side to them

It's probably got more

In common with those

Than it has with these

There's something about

The production

I hadn't realised

Chris Sheldon

Had done

So much of this stuff

Right

Yeah that's interesting

Isn't it

But it's like

On this album

But also on

Trouble Gun particularly

The snare sound

Yeah

Is

I love it

I absolutely

Love the snare sound

It's

There's a band

Called Tala

Yeah

Kind of like a

Hardcore band

Probably

They're quite modern

Most of our listeners

Probably hate them

But they've got

A similar snare sound

Yeah yeah

And I don't know

It pulls me in

I like it

It's got this kind

Of organic feel to it

You know that wasn't

Triggered

And it's not done

You know what I mean

There's no click

Happening here

This was just

Feel based

And it just

I just think it sounds

Phenomenal

And there are bits

In this album

Where the snares

Was properly

Out of place

Yeah

That kind of

Do you know what I mean

And then the song

Goes off

Yeah yeah yeah

And you just think

Whoa

And then it's just

And it all adds

To the chaos

And the liveliness

Of it

But

Yeah it definitely

Cuts

Yeah

It cuts through

There's something

About the production

Style of them

I think

Like there's

The Almighty

Their albums

Had like a very

British sound

To it

Gun did to

Yeah

There were

Wild Hearts

Yes

As well

We've got that

Kind of

And I think

A lot of it

Is that kind

Of British

Punky

Sound

That's kind

Of in here

It's still

Kicking around

You know

You've got

Like the grungy

Elements

Kind of coming

In I think

In these records

But yeah

There's like

You've got that

Punky spirit

And that

Kind of

The production

A little

Yes

But then

There's this melody

On top

And the

You know

The

That

Commentary

If you like

Coming from

Northern Ireland

Whenever we all

Got together

We started the

Band during the

Political unrest

Getting together

In a room

And making noise

Was our escape

Because it was all

Around us

In the news

And in the papers

What was going on

In our country

And if we went to

Visit another country

Oh you're from

Northern Ireland

That's where the

Bombs are

You know

So like whenever

The three of us

Got to make music

In a tiny little room

On a very wet night

In November or December

Whenever we got together

It was our way

Of getting away

From the world

For two and a half hours

This for me

Trouble Gum is up there

As one of the

The best

One of my favourite

Records

I think of all time

And I haven't

Listened to it enough

You know

When you look

Look back on it

Yeah

You kind of think

There were probably

Decades

Yeah

Where I

I didn't listen

To this

Yeah

Yeah

True

Yeah

So it's same

The sort of thing

You kind of forget

About them a little bit

Yeah

But they've still been

Doing great things

Yeah

You know

Like they've

I mean

In Amsterdam

I think

In the Netherlands

And there are places

In the world

Where they're

Where they're still

You know

They can

Draw in a crowd

And I think

They did a 20th anniversary

For Trouble Gum

Yeah

Which

Which was obviously

A couple of

A few years back now

But

You know

That was a

A big deal

You know

They were doing

Big

Big events

And big festivals

And that kind of thing

And big shows

Kind of

You know

Performing that album

And I think

I think it's one

Of those albums

That

Because it

It did define

A generation

As you say

It became

Something that people

Had a sense of identity

With and also a sense

Of belonging

With the record

Yeah

So hearing about it

Than playing again live

It would have been

Like a nice warm hook

You know

For a lot of people

Yeah

I think so

And I think

There's a

There's that certain thing

Isn't there

Where you

Yeah

There's like

Times in my life

And this time

In my life

When this stuff

Was coming out

I was kind of

Late teens

Early 20s

I was at university

I was doing

Doing stuff

You don't have that much

You know

You're busy doing things

But music is a part of that

Like you're going out

And music is like

A big big part of it

And then probably

Five

Five to ten years later

All of a sudden

You've got

A mortgage

And

Do you know what I mean

And actually life is

It changes a little bit

And music is a less

Big part of that

Yeah

Of that

And then

Like for me particularly

I would say probably

Another ten years after that

Yeah

Then actually getting back

Into music

But more modern music

Yeah yeah

And then it's only been

Probably the last five

Five to ten years

Yeah

Going back and rediscovering

This stuff from the

Eighties and nineties

Yeah yeah

And having it have

That same impact on me

Yeah

That it did back then

Yes

You know

So going to

Listen to

I listened to

I did listen to

Gallus and Swagger

From Gun

A month so ago

I've been listening to him

Quite a lot lately

And for those that

Follow us on social

Especially on X

You'll see that I kind of

Post on Friday

What I've been listening to

That week

So you'll see a lot of

That nineties stuff in there

But it hit me in the

Like almost the same way

It did

Yeah yeah

I remember going up to

Bath University

Because they'd got

An applied maths course

And I was thinking of doing it

So I'd headed up to

Bath Uni for their open day

And I'd got

Gallus guns

Gallus on

And I didn't know to come out

But when I got there

I did the open day thing

And then I came back

Took the car to get some petrol

And I saw Swagger

In the

You remember back when

They used to sell CDs

Yeah yeah yeah

And so I bought it

And then listened to it

On the way down

One of the strongest

In the services

Yeah

One of the strongest memories

Is listening to

Like you know

Word Up

And

Yeah yeah

Steal Your Fire

And all those kind of tracks

As I was driving back down

From

From the open day

Yeah

But it's weird

It brings back those

Yeah yeah yeah yeah

Those memories

And the nostalgia

And the time

Time machines

Yeah

It's just

I don't know

I think this

Music is incredible

Like

Trouble gum this album

Is that I've been

I'm sure I've talked about this

On the show before

But I cook most nights

So I finish work

And because I work from home

I find it really difficult

To switch off

Yeah

So I've got quite disciplined

Over the past couple of years

I kind of finish

And I'm like

I write down my to do's

For the next day

And I'm like

I'm going to do that

But I can't switch off

I can't

Like stop

You know what I mean

Stop obsessing over

The problems

Which makes it really difficult

You know when somebody

You kids and family

Want to have a conversation

With you about some random

Yeah yeah yeah

And I'm still buried in code

Or a problem

Or something that I'm trying to solve

And what I do is

I finish

Write my to do's

For the next day

Go into the kitchen

And we cook

Well I cook

As I go and grab stuff

And we cook

We get these

Like meal kit things

And I cook with them

And I always listen to music

And the last week

It's just been Trouble Gum

Every night

I just go in there

Scream at Alexa

Play you know

At Alexa

Play Trouble Gum

And off she goes

Yeah yeah yeah

And it's just

I don't know

It puts me in a good mood

Screaming along

While I'm chopping my onions

But it's

I don't know

Yeah yeah yeah

Something epic about this record

Yeah yeah

I made the kids listen to it

We've been in Derby

Escape Room today

Made them listen to this

On the way in the car

It's Dad's old man music again

Come and listen to

Imagine Dragons

No

Scream at you

What was it about

Shut up

But it's

It has a

I don't know

It controls how I feel

This music does

Yeah yeah yeah

You know like

You know we talked

I joked ages ago

About that

The kind of music

From the Pacific Northwest

That Seattle stuff

Is

Like

It's connecting

To your

Your feelings

It's kind of

Quite dour in a way

It's kind of

It touches and pulls

On your

Your emotions

A little bit

But in a

Like in a sad way

Right

It's kind of

Encouraging you

To connect to yourself

This is encouraging you

To go and like

Chop your onion

Do you know what I mean

Yeah yeah yeah

This gives me

Such a massive

Amount of energy

And like drive

To go and do

Like nothing can stop me

This album's on

Like there's a bunch

A lot of these

That we're going to cover

Have the same effect on me

Where I just

Take over the world

Yeah yeah yeah

If someone came in

And said like

There's a tank outside

Do you want to go

And like invade someone

Yeah

Do you know what I mean

I'd have ACDC blaring

And I'd go and invade Surrey

Or something

But do you know what I mean

It's like

Just nothing's a no

It's just like

You just get that

You just like

Wow I could take

Yeah yeah yeah

It just absolutely fills you

With this

This energy

And this drive

To go and

And it reminds me

Of the student clubs

You know the student nightclubs

And things

You would go there

And they would

You know they would

They would play

A bunch of different music

But then this stuff

Would come on

And everyone would

Just throw themselves

And it would be

Just mega

And then you'd wake up

The next day going

Why do I feel

Not very well

Vomit everywhere

Yeah

A bit of vomit

On your shoes

And that

I'm not afraid to die

I'm just scared of going to hell

I'm just scared of going to hell

Your car shoes

You're just scared of going to hell

She's in love

You just want to be

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Old twisted white

Dead crow in advance is your style

You blame me again, sir

Is this it all you just want to be?

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Jesus without the suffering

Fire, fire, fire, fire.

Fire, fire, fire, fire, fire.

Fire, fire, fire, fire.

Fire, fire, fire, fire.

Fire, fire, fire, fire.

If you look at the tunes and the melodies and the humour and stuff, they're quite uplifting.

And I find if you listen to it, there's always a bit of hope in there somewhere, no matter how aggressive or angry the song or music can seem.

The guitar sounds, you commented on this while we're listening to it, are very crunchy.

I think so, yeah.

They're very, they're quite, like, it's quite a high gain.

It's quite, you know, really, really distorted.

It's one of the things you can tell it apart from a U.S. record.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, the U.S., like, the stuff that came out in the 80s from L.A. was, like, pretty sweet, I would say.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's obviously distorted, but it had a lovely kind of sweet melodic tone to it.

And then you had, you know, often with a lot of reverb as well.

It was quite, you know, almost kind of a wet sound.

And then you had the stuff from, you know, Pacific Northwest.

Again, the Seattle sound, it got its own, it was kind of quite thick, I think, that sound.

Whereas this has got, it's got a bite.

It's like a...

Yeah, it's bite.

Bite is the word I'd use.

That's a really good word for it.

I think that's why it appealed to me.

I loved, there's a few guitar sounds that I just adore.

Yeah.

One is this.

The other one is the stuff that came out of Sweden for the death scene, like in two, that buzz song.

You know, when they had the Boss HM2s and they just wound everything up.

There's this lovely article which says that, like, you never see people saying, how do I get that tone?

Because it's literally up, it's the sound, the whole scene was one pedal and everything wound up for me.

And I just love it.

I just, you know, I had no idea how they got the tone for this record, but yeah, I love it.

Absolutely adore, adore this.

I love the snare sound.

And yeah, I don't know.

There's a lot of, we've talked about this a lot in the past, actually, but the bass on this, the space,

the, like, Chris pulls out space so you can hear the bass, which is absolutely vital for this sound work.

It really is, but it's full.

It does mush together.

There is space for everything, but there's not, other than the snare, which rips through everything.

Everything's kind of sort of glued, glued together.

The snare sounds almost like a rim shot and the snare at the same time.

Like, it's all played at the same, the same time.

But I'm sure someone will write in and tell us.

No one's corrected us on our Blind Melon article.

That's interesting.

We normally get at least one correction.

We did, yeah.

So I'm taking that, that we were perfect.

And that, it's all been factually checked.

So that one's in the box.

So we're all good.

Well, you were talking earlier, actually, about the, like, the genesis of the band and where

they came from in Northern Ireland as well.

Yeah, yeah.

It hadn't occurred to me, actually, until, only until you mentioned it, that that would have

put them, like, right in the middle of, like, those rough years of the troubles in Northern

Ireland.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's, I just think it's interesting that that, you know, the type of music that they

produced.

And the products.

Yeah.

The products of that.

Yeah, yeah.

And that, and one of the little interviews with Play Dood has spoken about that and actually

how the music, the creation of music with that group of lads was the escape.

Yeah, from the, yeah.

Was the, almost like the safe haven.

And I can resonate with that, you know.

Yeah.

When you, when you need to just get away, a band practice is a really nice place to

forget about the outside world.

Yeah, it's, we, we were at Derbyshire Makes yesterday.

We did a couple of podcasts from, from there, which was really, really cool from our town

in Swaddling Coat doing cool stuff.

But the number of people that were connecting, making stuff and art with escape and mental health

and just them being able to, like, disconnect from whatever's going on in their world.

Yeah, yeah.

So Opus were there and Opus do a, they had a stall and Nick Cutts, who runs Opus, they

kind of come from a, a sort of music for therapy kind of background.

Right, right.

And they do a lot where they'll go and play in hospitals or care homes or, you know, places

like that.

Yeah, of course.

And then they'll use music and musical expression to kind of connect people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they've got one of these, I don't know what they're called, but the big, the big, the big

things are called hand pans.

Right.

And they've got this beautiful, like, hypnotic kind of melodic sound that you can chime, they're

like chimey.

Yeah.

And what they had was a sort of equivalent to it, but it was more like a, not like, not

like a bowl, not like a bowl, more like a kind of, a sort of, a different kind of percussion

instrument.

We made a similar sort of sound.

Okay.

And they had these little sticks with it and, um, they let, they let me loose on

that.

And mate, I've disappeared.

I wasn't, I wasn't in the same realm.

I remember you when we went to Timber one year, went and do, was it gong therapy?

Gong therapy.

Oh yeah.

You just went, you were gone, you were just like zonked under this massive gong.

It was like, what's going on?

That was brilliant.

Yeah.

But this thing, like playing this thing, it was quite similar, I suppose, but I'd gone into

that and it was, you know, Nick was playing guitar and there was another lady there

playing the violin.

Yeah.

And, um, and I, and I just, I'd locked in.

I got, I disappeared and I was doing this thing and like the next, next up to the end,

he went, you weren't there, mate.

You all right.

Yeah.

You, you, you absolutely weren't there.

They often talk about that with drummers, don't they?

Yeah.

That they disappear.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you can see, you know, as a, as a photographer, I spent a lot of time in, in pits, shooting bands.

Pits.

Pits.

Okay.

Yeah.

Not armpits or like coal pits.

Um, but you, you often see like, you, you, you know, you, you see musicians and you've

kind of up, up fairly close with them.

Um, and you'll see like guitarists will often do it a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not to the same extent.

No.

Um, and you kind of vocalists almost, I, you rarely see it.

They always seem to be pretty conscious of where they are.

Yeah.

Drummers will spend like song after song, like zonked.

Yeah.

You can see it.

They just like jaw open, eyes transfixed.

Yeah.

They're not there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're just not aware of what is going on around them.

Yeah.

You could walk and punch them in the face.

But it's that weird, like, almost like, um, yeah, it's like they've transcended to like

a different, a different place kind of thing.

Music's incredible for that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was, there were times where, I mean, I suppose because we used to do it for so long,

but when we used to jam sort of a star from Ivy, we'd have a riff, we'd have a riff cycling

round and we'd, and we would all go.

Really?

Yeah.

We'd all go.

And, you know, it becomes almost like a meditation together because you've just gone.

You've just, you know, no, no one's in the room.

Everyone's just exploring their own inner space, but playing together.

You know what I mean?

Everyone should just go and start a punk band.

Just do it now.

Just put your, whatever this is, put it down.

Go and be a punk band.

If I'm totally honest, it wasn't that happy a period.

Recording the album was great.

I really liked recording the record.

And it was done very quickly, comparatively to other bands at the time.

You know, the drums and the bass were done in something stupid like two or three days.

And then the rest of the time was guitar and vocals and mixing.

But at that point in time, you know, we'd just come off a big tour.

We'd went into the studio and we knew that there was two world tours lined up.

The first one was just to promote the record.

And then when the record started selling well, we were booked in to go straight away back

to countries and play bigger venues.

And then I enjoyed it, but I was exhausted because I was a single man of partying a lot.

Fyfe, the drummer, didn't enjoy it because he didn't really like traveling.

He found it quite difficult.

And he was beginning to kind of, you know, find it very, very difficult.

With a lot of sales also comes negative criticism.

So it's the same with anyone.

Once you become popular, all of a sudden, cool critics start saying, oh, this band's not good anymore.

And I think that impacted on Fyfe a little bit as well.

I don't think he liked not being cool.

And it was sad to see.

And then I think with Michael as well, you know, Michael missed home a great deal.

So you had three guys.

One of the guys that didn't want to be on tour, one of the guys that really missed home,

and another guy that was partying too hard together, doing two world tours in nine months.

And it was all really, really quick turnarounds.

So, I mean, to be honest, I mean, recording the album and the success it brought was great,

but the actual tour was really, really difficult.

The best thing about every day was the one hour and 25 minutes we played every night on stage.

And that was what made it worthwhile.

You know, we would maybe have three hours sleep, get up, get a jet, get in a bus, be taken somewhere,

do press all day.

But it was the one and a half hour at the end of the night that made it all worthwhile.

I think it was great for me because I loved it.

You know, I loved it.

I was exhausted.

But when I was a kid with a tennis racket in front of the mirror,

whenever I was 14, wanting to be in a band,

that was what I thought would be part of it.

You know, I liked, you know, I liked coming over here.

I liked speaking to Uru magazine that I knew of and Humo magazine.

I liked speaking to the NMA and Kerrang!

And things that you dream of when you're, like, 15 and 16.

And seeing your video on TV and going to America and talking to Rolling Stone magazine and stuff like that.

It was like, it's not what I would read myself,

but every time I got myself a bit depressed, you know, I would think,

well, from starting out in a tiny little village outside Belfast to this,

it's been quite a great journey.

And I think what that made me do, though, is it made me appreciate that,

hey, you know, you can be a working musician.

I can do this for a living, you know.

And regardless, whenever, you know, the seals collapsed from,

well, the big, big seals collapsed, you know, from the major naval days,

we had it all in place that we could actually do this professionally.

And I feel really good that all of us have been professional musicians now for the last 20 years.

Turn and face the strange, the door is open, you're awake.

Remember, I know where you live, and I know you're on your own.

I may forget, I don't forget, I'm always home.

You turn and face the strange, you turn and face the strange, you turn and face yourself.

I know where you lie, the brightness darkens in your eyes.

This is yours to take control, this is yours now, hold your own.

Remember, I know where you live, and I know you're on your own.

You turn and face the strange, you turn and face the strange, you turn and face the strange, you turn.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

Baby, it's yours to take control.

I think that ended up being one of my favourite songs tune.

Sorry, I was sucking on a fruit pastel.

I wasn't ready.

I should say, Chris doesn't give me any warning.

He's just busy doing something and then he just starts talking.

I'm like, what? What's going on?

Yeah, I have to be honest.

This album's full of stuff like that

where there's big bangers, big anthemic stuff

and then there's other stuff that's like a little bit less in your face.

Do you know what I mean?

this a little bit more that the kind of slower burn stuff reminds me massively of what albums used to be like?

Yeah, there would be a few like this album to me is like properly front ended.

Yeah, like the big kind of massive anthemic stuff that you're going to scream your lungs out to in the first.

Early doors, yeah.

And then there's a bunch of others that you kind of grow on to.

Yeah.

And I don't know.

That's how albums used to be in the 90s.

Yeah, yeah.

In the 80s.

I wonder if, you know, I always think about this when you know,

when they're sequencing an album or where these songs come together.

I wonder if they know instinctively which ones the hits are as they're going down, as they're coming through.

I think the labels, because I think the labels get involved in a lot of that.

Yeah.

I think the band are like, there's all this so many stories of bands and labels falling out.

Yeah.

Which are the ones.

The singles are and which ones that, you know, they're not.

So I think the label are, and I think, I don't know, probably controversially, I think the label are probably better place to do it because they're not as close to it.

Yeah, yeah.

So they hear it for the first time and they're like, oh, that one hit me.

I mean, that's, you know, I mean, I can imagine that one being a banger, whereas the band have been so connected to and so close to it for months and months and months.

You lose perspective a little bit, you know, or you think, you know, this song's better.

Yeah, yeah.

Because it's probably maybe more complicated or, you know, it was more harder to write or something.

Yeah.

And then the curation of when to drop things, like which is the first single, which is the second single, you know, that kind of process there.

Like, because I think Going Nowhere was first and then maybe Screamager was second.

I think so, yeah.

Let me go and have a look.

I'm looking at my, I'm looking at my fact sheet.

I mean, you can't, you know, you can't sit in the studio and put Screamager together and not know.

Not know that that's going to, well, that's the one then, isn't it?

That's the one that's going to be the one that people hook into.

Yeah.

You've got to assume that they knew.

I mean, Screamager was nine in the UK, two in Ireland.

Turn was 18 in the UK and number five in Ireland.

Yeah.

So Turn was a single as well.

Yeah.

Nowhere was 18 in the UK and six in Ireland.

Yeah.

Trigger Inside was 22 in the UK and 16 Ireland and Die Laughing was 29 in the UK and 16 Ireland.

So they put out a fair few singles off it then.

They did.

It was interesting because they, there's a lovely quote where Cairns said something like, we, we didn't want to be part of a scene.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, that's not where we came from.

We didn't want to be, you know, in the Brit pop scene or whatever.

Yeah.

Wasn't us.

Mm.

And then a month later sitting there being interviewed by Kerrang magazine.

Yeah.

And all these others kind of, and people were saying, this is, this album is a classic.

This is going to be, this is going to go down as one of the, you know, class, most classic albums of the decade.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Kerrang voted it the best record of 94.

Yeah.

Um, you know, they were just like, it was surreal.

Yeah.

That wasn't us.

That wasn't the album we made.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so.

Doesn't that show that once it goes, you, you don't control that anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That doesn't belong to you.

You know, you, you, you create the art.

Yeah.

But once the art goes into the world, it takes on a life of its own.

Yeah.

And it's people connecting to it, isn't it?

And it's what it means to them.

Yeah.

For me, like this album has got a way about, and then like I said, we talked about before,

a lot of these albums around this time had this like upbeat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, tone to them.

Like the messaging wasn't, the messaging was, was not necessarily, but the, you know,

the, the tone of the music, if you like, was pretty, um, uh, pretty anthemic and kind

of, you know, scream along to, um, that, that underpins people's lives.

Yes.

I mean, I remember you, you, the immediately when the, that first chorus of Screamager comes

on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That puts me back in student union bars.

Yes.

You know, and you know, that's just, it just places you back in those times.

So, you know, it might've been the band that created it, but I created the relationship with

it and they're different things.

Yes.

I own that relationship with it.

Yeah.

Uh, and they created it.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I, I just love the fact that they, like they, they kind of knew that they,

they knew that they, what the producer was good.

Yeah.

Um, but I don't think they expected it to do, you know, what it did.

Do you know, do you know what I mean?

Yes.

Yeah.

The, the, the pressure's not as much now because we're not on a major.

I mean, whenever we were on the major label, we followed up Trouble Gum with Infernal Love,

which initially didn't do as well.

And then Diane was a big hit.

So it picked the sales up.

But, um, after that, the record company just wanted another hit album.

And I think really as well, to be honest, a lot of the fans that got into the band through

Trouble Gum, they left supporting the band because they only wanted stuff that sounded

like that.

But I don't think so because I think the band would have split up if we'd have tried

to make the Trouble Gum part two.

Um, I think we either got bored, you know, we're intelligent people.

We listen to all kinds of music.

We like all kinds of things to do with the arts and culture.

And to, I think if you're going to be a band like Motorhead or Ramones or ACDC, a formula

band, then you have to be really comfortable in your own skin.

And, and don't get me wrong.

I admire those bands.

Those bands do what they do.

And they, like ACDC said, we're rock and roll.

This is what we do.

This is what you get.

Um, and you know, sometimes I think it'd be great to feel that comfortable, you know,

but I kind of like to explore things when I go into the studio and I like to try and put

different things into the album.

And, and you know, it's probably acted against us, but it still made me consider myself valid

as a musician, as if I had just done something to keep it on.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Reveal yourself to me

Like she's pornography

Picking at my gills

With promises of hell

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

I'm glad my mirror's broken

My image is a burden

I want to lose myself

In the coming of the Lord

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Reveal yourself to me

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

Sin, sin

Sin, so that you know

Sin, so that you know

The worst thing I find about it is that it is what it is and it's just a business like any other business and we're not naive people.

But I think what it does is it can, whenever egos are involved, whenever the male ego is involved, it can do terrible things to people.

It can make people greedy, it can make people vain. And you know, I include myself in all of this, I think, in the past, various band members we've had that haven't got on or we haven't got on, and as the setting comes up, it makes you realise, you know, at the end of the day,

people can get bent out of shape about the smallest possible things. So I think that's the one aspect of it I would like to change.

I would like to sort of, the way the band is at the minute and it has been for the past, you know, seven years, is the way that I think the model should work.

It's really simple. It's really, really simple. Rock and roll is a really simple, well not even just rock and roll, contemporary music can be a really simple form of art.

I'm not talking about the complexity of the chord progressions or the complexity of the rhythmic structure or timbre. I'm talking about, if you want to make music with a bunch of people, those bunch of people are different, but when you get on you make group music.

Then, if you're in a room rehearsing or writing and someone doesn't like something, what you do is you don't keep it inside for weeks. Because if you're a touring band of musicians, that will come out. You will be in Amsterdam, three weeks into the tour, someone will be tired or stoned.

Someone will miss home, someone will want to not be there and an argument will start and then someone will say, that song you wrote four weeks ago was shit, I never liked that.

So we said when we got the band together with Neil this time round, we've had, and he's been in various bands in the past that have been the same as Therapy Situation.

We said that we'd always be very honest. We would always tell each other exactly what we thought and we would resolve any problems we had there and then and not let them carry on.

And so far, I mean, that's seven years we've had, we've had no rise. You know, anything that we don't like, anything that bugs each other about each other, we say straight away and it just clears the air and it makes it easier to get on with.

I mean, whenever we were the first line up with the band, you know, things were left on set for years, not even months, for years. And people are carrying that around inside themselves. It's not good.

I initially liked them as people when I met them. And you kind of think they probably initially liked me as well. But you know, whenever you get involved in a creative sense and friction and compromise or ideas of compromise, it begins to go quite sour.

And I think, you know, it's like everything else, looking back on it, you sort of think, none of it, none of it's terrible. You know, when I, I don't dislike any of those people, I certainly hope that they don't dislike me, but it's like you move on.

But you sometimes think, you know, some of the things that you thought over, as you get older and wiser, obviously, as Harold Pinter, the English playwright, said what he liked about getting older was the sense of grievance and grudge that he held against films.

Grudges that he held against fellow human beings diminished. Grudges he held against fellow playwrights and other people diminished as he got older and more mature and wiser.

And I think that's probably what it is. You know, now I'm in my fifth decade, I'm 45 years of age, and I think a lot of, a lot of stuff that would have wound me up when I was 22 now doesn't bother me in this list.

Do you know what my favourite thing is about these interviews?

No.

There's a soundcheck going on.

Yeah.

You can hear the drums in the soundcheck while he's doing the interview, and I keep getting distracted by it.

I once interviewed Doug Aldrich off of Whitesnake.

Buzz Aldrin.

Buzz Aldrin, yeah.

For those that are not familiar with Doug Aldrich, he's the nicest guy you'll ever want to meet.

Yeah, yeah.

It's absolutely phenomenal.

And he was, it was an interview with the Dead Daisies.

Oh, cool, yeah, yeah.

We were talking about a whole bunch of stuff, right?

So I've done what I usually do.

It's probably why I don't do this stuff anymore, right?

But I've been asked to go and talk to Doug Aldrich off of the Dead Daisies at the time about their new record.

And we were talking about, like, we were talking about Jeff Beck.

Yeah.

We were talking about The Beatles.

Yeah.

We were talking about nothing about the new album.

Everything but the thing you were supposed to be there for.

And anyway, we kind of got to this point.

And then in the background, there was a band called The Amorettes.

Oh, they're great.

He was supporting them at the time.

They're called...

I think Nick Bryan produced them.

Yeah, he did.

He did, yeah.

They're called The Hot Dam now.

Yeah, that's it, yeah, yeah.

They're Amorettes and Tequila Mockingbird merged together and they're now The Hot Dam.

Yeah, I think he did both of those, actually.

And they're still absolutely awesome.

Anyway, they were...

We've got to do a Nick Bryan one.

We should, shouldn't we?

Yeah, we should get Nick in, actually.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But they were sound checking in the background and we both looked at each other and were just like,

shall we go to the bar?

What is this?

All right, so I went and had a beer with Nick Bryan, with Doug Aldrich at the bar.

It was brilliant.

The best interview ever that was.

So we watched the girls and it was mega.

Yeah.

I forgot where I was going with that now, but...

We were talking about...

Oh, the sound check on the interviews.

Oh, sound checking.

We covered that.

That's fine.

Yeah, it's all good.

The thing about this album, I actually don't know anything about it.

Do you want some facts?

Yes, I think we should have some facts.

Shall I get my fact sheet out?

I know that I like it.

Yeah.

And I know that the things we've talked about...

Everyone likes this album.

If you don't like this album, just go away.

You know there are albums that I think, if you don't like it, I don't think...

We're just so not...

We're just not the same...

But unfriend me now.

Yeah.

A bit like that.

I'm a bit...

I don't know.

But that's kind of how...

You know when you're in an album is so like...

Ooh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ooh, I can't...

And I can't...

I can't understand how anybody wouldn't feel the same.

Because we're all the same.

Anyway, release date, 7th Feb 1994.

Album title, Trouble Gun, which I just loved.

Yeah, yeah.

Everything about this record just appealed to me, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

At the time.

Total runtime, 45 minutes.

Yeah, and it's got 15 songs on it, hasn't it?

Yeah, it's a bit long.

Yeah.

I absolutely loved it.

Yeah, 14 songs on the UK version.

14, sorry.

As they used to do back then, where they would...

The UK version would have their British bands, UK stuff, it would have...

I don't know, like standard issue, like somewhere between 9 and 12 or 13 songs or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Then, a few months later, you'd get this Japanese version, which had an extra couple of songs.

Yes, yeah.

And Linkin Park are just doing this with their album from Zero.

How are they, right?

I love them.

I love them coming back.

Love The Sound of Emily.

Massive fan of what they're doing.

But, they've just added four tracks to the end and now there's a deluxe version and there's a new vinyl and they've changed the cover.

Don't do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just release it as an EP or release it properly in the first place.

Oh, I was thinking about something earlier.

You know, like your thing about covers and all that.

Yeah.

You're not keen.

There was something that I was thinking about earlier and I went, oh, that's my thing that I don't like.

What do you not like?

I don't know, I can't remember what it was now.

You don't know what you don't like.

No.

But it'll come back to me.

The thing about covers is, you know, I mean, this is going to be no shock to people that are regular listeners to our show.

But I'll say something like, I don't like covers.

And then I love Bread Fan, Metallica.

And I think Word Up is just epic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, oh, what's the Counting Crows cover?

The big Counting Crows cover.

Oh, yeah.

Big Girl Taxi.

Big Girl Taxi.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's brilliant.

Yeah.

So just ignore me, basically.

I have no idea what I am talking about.

Anyway, back to facts.

Record label, A&M Records, they were quite supportive of this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I knew this was going somewhere, I think.

It was recorded in Surrey and Chipping Norton.

Okay.

In a bunch of different studios.

It's not very rock and roll, is it?

It's not.

They're not.

They're not rock and roll places.

Produced by Chris Sheldon.

And we'll talk about him in a bit.

It sold a million copies worldwide.

Mm, mm, mm.

It should have sold 10 million copies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think.

Do you know what I mean?

It's one of those albums where, I don't know, I just feel like it should have been made.

I think there are pockets of the world.

Yeah.

That got it.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

But not everywhere.

Yeah.

I think Ireland and the UK, and there's a bunch of these albums that were just massive here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But just didn't translate to the States for whatever reason.

And Europe as well.

A lot of these guys would do the Europe tours.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They would do.

That is very, very true.

Back when you could tour Europe.

Oh, yeah, you're not allowed anymore, are you?

You just can't.

It's too expensive.

It was one of the big bands.

I think it was Anthrax saying that it's just unviable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think it was Charlie Benante was saying that that's why you're seeing so many of these

big headline, like joint co-headline tours.

Yeah.

Because you need to connect multiple fan bases together, like fans that will, you know,

where you're not just going to get the same people go and see two bands.

Yeah, yeah.

Bands that are really similar.

They've got to be different enough that it pulls double audiences.

Yeah.

So, yeah, brilliant.

Anyway, Kerrang! would name this album to be their top album of 1994.

And they ranked it 31st in their list of best British rock albums ever.

Wow, wow.

I need to go and track that down again.

Hamilton of Helmet, who guessed it on the album, said it was a masterclass in how to blend

aggression and melody.

And I think that's a great quote.

Yeah, that is a great quote.

So we've talked a bunch about this stuff before, but the band were from Northern Ireland, kind

of grew up in the Troubles.

They used music as a bit of an escape.

At the time, in the UK in the early 90s, there was grunge from Seattle.

You had Britpop.

You kind of had Oasis and Pulp and Blur and all of that stuff kind of happening.

And this felt like a bit of an underbelly to me.

All of these albums we're going to cover next is this kind of dirty, hard, rocky, punky underbelly that were like, we're not Oasis.

Yeah.

We're not, that's not, you know, they're not our people.

That's mainstream, mainstream friends.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, that's not always with the alternative kids.

Yeah.

Right.

And that was kind of where this stuff, stuff come from.

Maybe that's the label for what I was saying before, but it's really hard to describe, but

maybe it's UK alternative.

It is a little bit.

It's what it feels like.

Yeah, absolutely.

But it wasn't in the main.

I mean, although this stuff got in the charts.

Yes.

It very much wasn't like the mainstream.

No, no.

Stuff right back then.

No, no.

Members of the band is Andy Cairns.

I'm going to get a load of these names.

Fife Ewing.

Yeah.

Drummer.

Yeah.

Michael McKeegan.

Sounds like a footballer.

Paige Hamilton.

Guest league guitar.

Yeah.

From Helmet.

Leslie Rankine.

Guest vocals on Lunacy Booth.

Martin McCarrick did the cello on Unrequited.

Unrequited.

Oh, wow.

And Eileen Rose did additional vocals on Femtex.

Yes.

Yeah.

I like that.

Great name of a song.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So A&M Records signed them after that.

They did a bunch of EPs before this, which are awesome too.

But yeah.

So they were pretty well funded, I think.

As albums and bands were back then.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think if you proved that you got a bit of a following then, you kind of, you did get

that.

Guess who else Chris Sheldon produced?

Oh, you said earlier, didn't you?

Soundgarden.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

He did some Soundgarden stuff eventually, which was cool.

What I'm going to do.

Oh, yeah.

So Chris Sheldon as well.

We talked about, he was kind of one of your go to's in the UK.

So he did Feed a Gun.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My Vitriol, Biffy, Ocean Size, Reuben.

Reuben might be quite a good.

Yeah.

Reuben McGray, actually.

And then he also did Hard Cold Fire from Therapy in 2023.

Yeah.

So fairly, fairly recently.

Like, they worked with Chris Sheldon over the years.

So they did, but they've also worked with some other big producers as well on other records

Clay and Head and Andy Gill as well.

Trouble Gun was shortlisted for the Mercury Prize in '94, which I didn't know.

Do you know what the Mercury Prize was?

No.

As in like where it came from?

No.

Do you remember Mercury is in the...

A planet.

No, no, no.

No.

The metal.

Nope.

The planet.

The phone provider.

No.

The phone network provider.

I don't know.

Or internet provider or something like that.

No.

I have to Google this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's what it is.

Oh, really?

So, you know, like if you said like the Amazon Awards for something or the Orange Awards.

Yeah.

Well, that company doesn't exist anymore.

No, no.

But it's still called the Mercury Music Prize.

It's still named after Mercury.

That's interesting, isn't it?

I feel like I need to go and educate myself.

I feel uneducated.

Oh, the records released in 1994.

Yeah.

A bunch of these we've covered.

Super Unknown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

By Soundgarden.

Dookie.

Wow.

What a time.

Guess how many albums that sold.

Well, Dookie.

It's got to be tens of millions.

20 million.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They sold 1 million.

Yeah.

And that's it for me.

That kind of.

There's a.

The music on Dookie to me is phenomenal, but this is no less phenomenal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The impact this had on me is equal to Dookie, I think.

You had Grace by Jeff Buckley.

Yeah.

Wow.

Right.

Which we've done one on.

We should do Dookie.

We were going to do it, weren't we?

Yeah, yeah.

With.

Oh, Adam.

Adam.

Yeah, we were going to get Adam on.

Yeah.

And then I forget whatever, whatever.

It's probably our fault.

We should do that because he's awesome.

He loves that.

Yeah, we should get back to him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And do that because that would be great.

You know, I.

Let's do this British stuff and then we'll go.

Yeah, yeah.

We'll dive back over.

Maybe we'll do some pop punk US stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We could do Blink as well.

Yeah, yeah.

A bit of Sum 41 and all that lot.

Oh, God, yeah.

Jimmy Eat World.

Does this look infected?

Yeah.

Who was the.

Could go ranted even.

Oh, God.

Who did that.

They've got even.

Yeah, no effects.

Yeah.

Loads of those bands.

I think they're dead good.

Bowling for Soup.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, God.

I saw them live.

They were dead good.

Purple by Stone Temple Pilots was released in 94.

Park Life by Blur.

That was a lot of great music going on, wasn't there?

Yeah.

The Downward Spiral by Knowledge Nails.

Oh, well, right.

Smash by The Offspring.

Yeah.

And Korn.

That's a big year, isn't it?

It is, isn't it?

That's a big year.

Banging.

In a material way, it's the most important one, because it meant that the band got a worldwide

audience.

You know, the places that were popular with Trouble Gum.

I mean, Trouble Gum sold that many copies.

We were playing to a lot of people.

So it means when we go back now, the audiences might not be as big.

But because we went there with the Trouble Gum album, we have a fan base and companies.

And, you know, that was very, very important for that.

Also as a band that had been struggling at this point in time for four years, you know,

with no money, it kind of set us up a little bit financially.

It gave us the money to kind of get more equipment established.

It made us financially comfortable around those times.

We were able to set up our own management organisation that we wanted and keep everything in-house,

which means that to this day, you know, whenever we're not on a major record label anymore,

we have a financial structure there.

It's a business model, you know, that we set up from the money that we got from Trouble Gum.

So it's been very helpful in materialistic terms and in terms of setting up a fan base.

If you had to choose your favourite song off this record...

Yeah.

...like the standout, what would it be?

Because at one time, I'd have said Scream Ager.

Yeah.

But I think now, it would probably be Going Nowhere.

No, I can't choose that.

Actually, if I skip through this album, I Scream Ager and I scream at it.

Then, going nowhere, turn.

Yeah.

And then...

I know, it's weird.

It depends what mood I'm in.

If I'm in the car, like coming over here, it takes me about seven or eight minutes.

Yeah.

So I got through half of Scream Ager, scream my lungs out to that.

Then I flip to going nowhere, scream my lungs out to that.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

But if I'm at home...

Yeah.

...I would listen to it all.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah.

And I think...

Oh, yeah.

It's a really interesting one.

Because...

I think I have developed a...

Like a love for albums.

Okay.

Yeah.

When I say I've developed a love for...

I think I have...

I've realised how much they mean to me.

The thing itself, the whole thing.

Whereas when I discovered this record, I would have had it on tape.

And I remember getting my first Walkman that let me skip songs.

You know that?

Oh, right.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I pressed play and then I held play and pressed fast forward and it would zip to the next track.

Yeah.

Now, doing that on an audio cassette was like a...

That was like the best thing ever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it takes me back to that, like the time before that, when you literally...

I would be on the bus into college or whatever, put the tape on and you'd listen to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All the way through.

Because you kind of didn't have much choice.

Yeah.

I loved it when the tape technology came along, where it auto turned itself over.

Oh!

God, yeah.

And then it turned back itself over again.

So you never had to take it out and do it.

It was that sound, wasn't it?

Where it would get to the end and it would go...

And then you'd race to it thinking, "Oh, it's going to rip it apart!"

I don't miss tape very much.

No.

I do like that almost the way it forces you to make time for it and to listen to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like vinyl is doing that for me again at the moment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where people talk about, "Oh, it sounds better."

And blah, blah, blah.

I don't think it sounds better.

But I love the fact that I can pick it up.

It's a thing that I can hold.

I often put the record on and I'll flip it over.

You just can't help yourself.

You just sit back in my chair.

You flip it over.

Yeah.

You read through the back of the record.

You pull the liner notes out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Before you know it, you've finished that side.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you've...

You were in there.

Yeah, you've given yourself over to that music at that time.

So the thing I don't like about lots of these flashy vinyls, they do them on two records.

Yes, yeah.

So you put it on.

Yeah.

And it's over.

Yeah.

When you put it on two songs, it's gone.

I don't want that.

I want...

Give me one where I can listen to it all on one side.

Make them massive.

Like...

Do you know what I mean though?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like a kind of...

And when you get old, like getting up and sitting down again, it's hard work.

But I do like it.

What about you?

So you were saying that "Going Nowhere"?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it is "Going Nowhere", I think.

And...

Because it's the one that actually is like...

Because the album's full of riffs, but they're quite...

It's quite a minor album.

Yeah.

There's a lot of songs in minor keys.

Yeah.

Whereas "Going Nowhere" is a major key.

And I think that makes it jump out a little bit for me.

I love it.

I'm gonna get me a motor car, maybe a Jaguar, maybe a plane, or a day of fame.

I'm gonna be a millionaire, so can you take me there?

Yeah.

That was "Going Nowhere" by Oasis.

Is it?

Yeah.

How cool is that?

Very, very cool.

But do you know, the lyrics on this album from Therapy as well, they're really short and pointed.

There's not like tons and tons of like nonsense.

No, no.

Do you know what I mean?

It's kind of quite short and repetitive, which makes them easy to scream it onto.

That's your anthem.

That's where your anthem comes in, isn't it?

Yeah.

I, there is very much a, like a, you listen to it once in a, like, certainly for me, almost

everything off this album, you listen to it once and then you will be like, I know that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the next time it comes on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, do you know, there's others like basket cases like this and a bunch of the Green Day

songs.

I think that's kind of what makes them special.

They've got that punk simplicity.

Yeah.

The lyrics are easy to remember.

Yeah.

And then, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Well, they're the masters of it, aren't they?

I mean, they did it even with American Idiot and all that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

You know what?

It's really, really true.

I, um...

We should probably do American Idiot.

We did too.

Why did we...

Why did we not do...

We talked about this and I can't remember why we didn't do it.

Um...

Because, you know, it's a massive album that is.

Right.

Gonna play Going Nowhere.

You have a choice.

When you do your choices, I want nothing to do with this.

And you can sort of try and follow your own path or else you can just fall in.

And it's an easy trap to fall into.

Especially, I mean, the opening line is Heaven Kicked You Out.

And I mean, that really refers to the fact that people that are born in this circumstance

really have to try harder than privileged people to make an effort to break out of that kind of circle.

And without sounding like a hippie, the only thing you actually have is yourself.

And that's the only thing you have control of.

And if it means losing a few friends to be yourself, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

Because you're wanting yourself to answer to, really.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

If it means losing a few friends, then it's worth it at the end of the day.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

I'm going to be a little bit more.

Whenever you come back and play the Trouble Gum record,

because it was recorded so long ago,

there are bits of overdubbing and bits of vocal melody

and bits of guitars, studio effects,

which I've forgotten about on some of the track.

And it's quite surprising, going back,

just hearing some of the little subtleties that are in there,

little bits of-- it's mostly to do with effects.

There's quite a lot of little ambient effects

buried in the mix for a rock record.

Your rock records are more often than not in the '90s very dry.

And these were little bits of reverbs

and little bits of kind of vocal effects,

which are quite unusual.

That's actually true what he said there,

because I was listening to something earlier.

Oh no, I was editing another podcast earlier.

And I had this on in the background while I was editing.

And there was something that had a flanger on it.

Explain what a flanger is.

Oh, it's like a kind of sound.

That's like a filtering effect.

It's called a modulation effect,

but it's a filter effect that makes everything sound a bit airplane-y.

Yeah.

Like a jet engine.

Like that kind of stuff.

And it had it on this to the point where I was listening to it going,

"Is that the thing I'm editing that's got like a comb filter on it?"

Oh, right.

And it was this.

Because it can sometimes happen if you've mic'd it in a particular room,

or you get this kind of comb filtering thing where it was suddenly sort of modulating.

And yeah, it wasn't.

It was actually on that.

So there are some really strangely placed, quite extreme...

I mean, he said they're quite subtle.

I suppose some of them are quite subtle.

But some of them are like, they're really in your face effects.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's true.

The one for me last week was Blind Melon.

The same with the vocals on that.

There was a lot of the vocals that had a sort of phaser or a flanger type sound on it.

And you don't normally do that to vocals.

I suppose.

And we've talked about this before, but often it's that lack of confidence in the vocal.

Yeah.

Where they feel the need to put like multiple...

Something on it.

Yeah.

James Hetfield, there's a bunch of interviews with him in the early days,

and he just hates his voice.

Yeah, yeah.

And he was trying to get another vocalist.

They were constantly trying to get...

In those early Metallica albums, James was constantly trying to get another vocalist.

Mm-hmm.

And they would constantly like double track the vocals.

Mm-hmm.

There would always be layers of double track of the vocals.

And it was only with Bob Rock on the Black Album.

Yeah.

That they stopped doing it.