RIFF06 - A Perfect Circle - Mer De Noms

Riffology, James Hetfield is in the studio.

You know, what year was this album?

Perfect Circle.

It was recorded in 1999.

And then we all thought we were going to die because the printers would overtake the world in 2000.

And this was released in 2000.

I think I'm looking at the release date.

So that's legal, isn't it?

We're allowed to do this one because it's now 2025.

Where in the year was it?

Where in the year was it?

I don't know.

I can't remember.

I'm just looking for the release date in my list.

There must be.

Hi, we're Riffology.

I'm Chris.

Yes.

You're Neil.

I'm looking at my thing.

Look at his notes.

23rd of May.

Oh, we're fine then.

That's fine.

That's over 25 years ago.

Yeah, it's good.

So that's the golden rule.

We only have one golden rule.

Yeah.

And that is that the album we talk about has to be 25 years old or more.

Because anything after that isn't as good.

Boring.

Yeah.

And then every year it's okay.

It gets less boring.

So at the minute, like, what would we want to do?

Do you know what album I really want to do is Nickelback's debut.

Yes.

Silver sign.

And that's 2001.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's rubbish at the minute.

Yeah.

Next year.

Next year it's in.

We can do that.

It's in.

I'd like to do Diorama by Silverchair.

Oh, yeah.

For that's two years off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because of the producer who we're going to talk about next week, probably.

Maybe.

What are we going to do?

Did you just talk about what we're going to do next week?

Because we've got a plan already.

We know the plan.

Right at the start of the show.

Before next.

Yeah.

Not bad, is it?

Really?

No.

So this week is.

Hello, America.

Lots of American listeners.

They're good.

It's just so verbal diary, isn't it?

There is though, isn't there?

There's loads of people listening to America.

It's a lot of night frogs.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

It is.

It is.

So we're doing A Perfect Circle.

We're doing A Perfect Circle.

Mare de noms.

Mare de noms.

Sea of names.

Sea of names.

In French.

Yep.

Which is good.

Yeah.

And...

God, it's mega, this album is.

Can we just say?

The bit that I got about this album...

Yeah.

...is I listened to it a long time ago.

Yeah.

And then I forgot that it existed.

Yeah.

And then I've come back to listen to it again.

Yeah.

And then I've zoomed in on my favourite tracks this last week.

And, you know, it's one of those where you sort of forget how good it is, but then you

listen again and go, oh, no, no, no, it's even better than I used to think it was.

It's...

Like, there's something about this record that's absolutely magical.

I was chatting to somebody on our X socials...

Yeah.

...this week.

And it was...

We do, we do, like...

Riffology podcast.

Riffology podcast.

Yeah.

We're on X and all.

Just search for Riffology when you'll find us.

Anyway, I was chatting and we do, every day, we do a, hey, these albums were released on

this day.

And there was, I can't remember which album it was.

There was an album released, like, one day this week, you know, like, 20, it'll probably

be, I think it was like, 33.

I remember the album was 33 years old, I can't remember which album it was.

And he said, I'd forgotten about this album.

It was my favourite record.

Yeah.

I saved up money, went and bought it on cassette.

Yeah.

And, you know, just seeing the post has brought back, like, all, it's like, flooded back all

these memories.

Yeah, it's amazing.

And I've gone back and listened to it.

But this is what we do every week when we sit and do this.

Yeah.

We do, don't we?

We both, we both have this, like, gushing, like, oh, God, this is so good.

I've got so, for both of us, all this stuff comes fucking back.

Well, it's the time of year, isn't it?

Yeah.

And you kind of remember what you were doing.

Like, I remember this, not knowing any, I mean, I knew about Tool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I knew Tool.

Yeah.

Didn't really know A Perfect Circle.

No.

And all I remember is being at, I think it would have been, like, oh, I know where

it was.

I went to see Linkin Park.

Right.

And my friend was wearing a Perfect Circle t-shirt.

Yeah.

And I loved, I thought, that is a cool looking t-shirt.

That's the thing I always remember about this band, is that they, all the logo stuff and

all the design stuff looked wicked.

This is an album I would buy.

Yeah.

Because I like the cover.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The album is incredible.

Yeah.

And we'll talk about that in a bit.

But it's all, it's all from the mind of Billy, isn't it?

So he's, like, the songwriter, the kind of designer, the kind of concept builder.

He is the person, but he is the vision, because I always thought it was the tall guy.

What's his name again?

Sorry.

I've forgotten his name.

Maynard James Keenan.

Yeah, don't, don't come here for facts.

That's not where you're coming from.

I wanted to say James, but it's Maynard, isn't it?

He is Maynard.

Maynard.

James Keenan.

Yeah.

Off of Tool.

Yeah.

So I always thought it was his baby.

Everybody thought it was his baby.

But it's not.

Well, he did the lyrics.

He did the melody and the tunes, the vocals.

Some of it.

Right.

Okay.

Right, right, right.

So Billy Howardell, the storage group.

Because he was like a tech.

He was a tech, wasn't he?

He was a tech for Nine Inch Nails.

And Tool, I can't remember if Tool was supporting.

Anyway, so Tool and Nine Inch Nails did a thing.

They were friends.

They got mates.

Yeah.

And then Billy needed somewhere to stay.

Yeah.

And Maynard was like, come and stay with me.

Yeah.

So those two, like he rented a room from Maynard.

And then, you know, basically was like, oh, I've written this.

I've written, you know, I was kind of able to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he was, yeah, he was a guitarist.

And Tool was an audio thing.

Yeah, Tool was pretty big.

And I think Maynard was like, yeah, these are pretty cool tunes.

And then it kind of snowballed.

It snowballed from there, basically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But Billy had written a lot of the lyrics.

Oh, wow.

So they were kind of fully formed sort of thing.

I think he grabbed it and made it and completed it.

But I think a lot of the early stuff was, you know, Billy had done them.

I was working with Fishbone when I met him.

Tool was opening for him.

And that's how we met.

I met him in 97 on Lollapalooza when Devo was playing and Tool was playing.

Literally four or five months later, I go audition for Guns N' Roses.

I get the job.

I'm now in this recording studio five nights a week, Guns N' Roses.

And all these, there's guitar techs, there's drum techs, there's engineers, there's Pro Tools.

There's all these extra people and employees working down there, right?

So the guy running the Pro Tools rig was this guy, Billy.

And he said to me one day, he goes, hey, you know, uh, you know my roommate?

Roommates, heard his music, got involved, record.

Billy's on the phone.

He goes, hey, Josh, here he goes, here.

And he hands me the phone.

Who was he?

He goes, Bannard.

I go, hey, what's happening, man?

You know, and he goes, hey, he goes, that guy you're hanging out with right now, that guy,

Billy, he's way too modest and cool, but he writes awesome fucking songs.

I want to start a band with him and you should be the drummer.

So anyways, Bannard's like, I want to make a record.

I want to make it with Billy.

You got to be the guy.

And so I kind of all started hanging out.

And it was kind of this thing I did on the weekends.

Like I was working with Guns N' Roses during the week.

And then Saturday or Sunday, we'd go rehearse and do some demos.

And then, shit, we're going to play a gig.

Okay, now we're going to do this.

And then we're going to do a couple of club things here and there.

And also in the beginning, because I was still tied down to the Guns N' Roses situation

and under contract with them, they were also doing some, they did a few gigs with Tim Alexander from Primus.

That first Perfect Circle record, it's like a lot of that stuff on it.

I think it's a great record.

And I feel proud of it.

Pauz Menchantin is the bass player.

She's from Argentina.

Amazing, amazing artist.

Violin, piano, classically trained musician.

Troy, amazing guitar player.

He's played with Failure.

He has his own band called Enemy.

So, like, it's a proper melting part of a band, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, so we had Tim Alexander from Primus initially, drumming, then Josh Freese.

And then, you know, the media picked this up as being Maynard's band, Maynard's side project.

That's what I always thought it was.

And it was really interesting because they chose, so the label was Virgin.

So it went out on Virgin.

And the reason it went out on Virgin, because Maynard said they were the only one that realised that this was a big deal.

It wasn't like some kind of tiny little side project in that this wasn't like, you know, Maynard's hobby.

Yeah.

This was, you know, a different thing all by itself.

And Billy was the architect behind it.

I think he did all of the artwork.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the bit that I thought was fascinating because it's such a strong logo.

Oh, God, yeah.

Like, that's such a really good logo, that is.

It's important.

It's important having a good logo, I think.

Yeah.

It makes a big difference if you've got, if you've got, yes, about your identity, isn't it?

Yeah.

And, you know, the other thing, I think, for this record that it didn't hit me at the time.

I don't think I recognised at the time.

Listening back to this now, there's so much space.

Mm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's not...

Like dynamic range and stereo width.

Yeah, there's like empty space in these songs.

And there's, like, it doesn't...

When you think about how the songs are structured, you know, kind of verse, chorus, you know, bridge

verse, and that doesn't feel like the way these songs are put together.

And yet, if you think about what other bands were doing at the time, and this was, you

know, turn of the, turn of the century.

I don't know, there was like...

Turn of the century.

It was like new metal was kicking off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you'd got kind of Korn and Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park.

And there were straight songs.

Yeah.

There were straight rock and roll.

Compressed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Beyond, these were, you were close.

I mean, I, you know, we did manage to compress them more than they were at this point.

But do you know what I mean?

It felt like, when you listen to them, they feel like big slabs and stuff.

There's, you know, drum triggers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Compression.

And the guitars are kind of properly, you know, the guitars feel like they've got proper

weight to them in American rock at this point.

Heft.

Heft, that's the word for it.

Yeah, good heft.

But then this comes out, and it's delicate and heavy.

Yeah.

And it doesn't smash your face in.

No.

At any point.

There's no point, do you...

The heavy bits are warm.

They're warm, heavy bits.

It's kind of, like, flowy.

Yeah.

It's got this...

It feels more to me like a classical movement than, like, the whole album.

Yeah.

It kind of ebbs and flows from beginning to end.

And you, you lose...

I don't know the track names very well.

No, no.

And I've been listening to this album loads this week, and we came and sat down and we're

like, so what song shall we play then?

Yeah.

I'm like, I don't know any of the names.

No, actually, I have to go through it to try and get the song names of the bits that I like.

I like, I know...

Because I wasn't used to what the songs were called, because it flows so much.

Genuinely, like, well, about 20 minutes in, I like this.

Yeah.

But I don't...

Yeah, it's...

And you were saying it's like a vinyl album, and it is.

It's one of those things that you...

Like, other albums like this for me, like Dark Side.

Yeah, yeah.

Dark Side for me.

It just goes on.

You don't know what the bit you're in's called.

Yeah.

It just feels, you know, you follow it as a flow.

It's like an event.

It kind of flows.

It's not like song, song, song, song.

Like, if I compare this to other albums I've been listening to this week, Bush.

Yeah.

Sixteen Stone.

Yeah, great album.

The song, song, song, song.

Yeah.

Brilliant.

And The Donners.

Yeah.

Who, again, I adore The Donners.

I wish you'd do one of their albums.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, again, proper kind of, you know, slammy...

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

...songs.

It's like, song begins about this, and it finishes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was thinking about live.

I was thinking about Throwing Copper.

Oh, yeah.

Same gig, innit?

That's a good album to do.

But it...

Because I was paired live, that dark, that slightly earlier, darker live stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Because they did quite poppier stuff later.

Yeah.

But that early, darker, grungier stuff.

Yeah.

I put this in the same bank as that in my consciousness, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I think...

But it's a totally different album.

It is.

Because live is the song.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whereas this is...

They're kind of like compositions.

They feel like compositions.

It does.

And I know that reading how these were written, it feels to me like this album was written as

one thing.

Yes.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like somebody sat down and went, I'm going to write an album.

And wrote...

Didn't write a song, wrote a whole album.

And I find this one almost difficult to turn off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, if I put Back in Black on, one of my favourite records, I can get like two, three

songs in and I can stop.

Yes.

Do you know what I mean?

Like with this, I'm kind of like, oh, do you know what?

I'm just going to let it go.

Yeah.

And I had a meeting this week and I have music.

I listen to music all through, like basically, if I'm not actively speaking on a Teams call

or whatever, I've got music on.

And I was listening to this and I knew I had a Teams call and I normally pause and I didn't.

I just turned the volume down.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So in the back, in the background, I could listen to it while people were dribbling

on about whatever they were talking about.

But it's, yeah, it's one of those records, I think.

It's like the beginning and end.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean?

It just, it's just beautiful.

And there are bits, there are passages in there, there are bits that are really heavy, but then

there are bits in there that are like just so delicate.

Yeah, yeah.

Like gentle.

But placed beautifully.

Oh, yeah.

Like you're like it's on a journey.

Like it doesn't dive out at you like it, like a shock.

No.

The heavy bits.

They never do that on this record.

Some, some of them do.

Like I remember listening to Melancholy for the first time and then suddenly like Bullet

with Butterfly Wings comes out and snarls at you and then goes into this beautiful ballad

and they're quite, it's quite jarring the kind of difference.

But that's the dynamics of, yeah.

Whereas this is really like, it seems to like meld itself and morph into the heavy bits

and then out again.

Honestly, it's only as we've tried to describe this, it's making me, it reminds me of classical

music.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, you know, a piece rather than a rock song.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's weird what it stands up like against the other albums that were out at the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's totally the same beast.

It really is.

I don't, I can't, you know, other than, but then saying that even, you know, I was saying

about Diorama earlier, that was a couple of years later.

This, they're very songy, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Black and Sky, Biffy Clive, that's a different, different, different part of the world really.

But do you not think as well with, with this one?

I love the fact that it's not, like, Maynard's vocals.

Yeah.

And there are, like, his vocal becomes the instrument.

Yes.

Yeah.

And carries the melody.

Yeah.

And I know lots of other vocalists do that, but I just think it works really well here.

Yeah, it's not sitting on the song as a top line.

It's part of the beast.

Exactly.

Part of the beast, yeah.

Exactly.

And there's bits of that, I think, throughout this.

And we have to talk as well, while we're gushing about it, we have to talk about the strings.

Oh, my God.

On three libras.

Indeed.

Yeah.

I...

So it's Paz, isn't it?

Yeah.

On the bass.

And I didn't even know this before we put the interview on.

Like, oh, God, it's Paz on the bass.

Because I know Paz from the Pixies.

Yeah.

Now, as she is now.

I didn't know she was in the Pixies later on.

Yeah, that's right.

I did not know she was in the Pixies.

She was Kim Deal originally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And she was also...

Where I learned about her was when she did the project with Billy Corgan with Zwan.

Zwan, of course, yeah.

So there was all of this, like...

That's what I mean by the melting pot.

There was all of these people that were kind of, like, in and out of each other's bands,

but they were all big bands.

Yeah.

Like, Josh Freeze was obviously in so many different things.

Like, didn't he start in Guns N' Roses?

Yeah, there's a lovely bit in one of the interviews with him talking about this project.

Yeah.

Where he was like, I came from Guns N' Roses, where it was big, you know, lots of people,

lots of producers and, you know, all the big ticket stuff, in 1999.

Yeah, yeah.

Which wasn't going to be released for nine years.

Because that was...

You said that was Chinese democracy.

Chinese democracy, yeah.

Yeah.

It's just mad.

Yeah.

Anyways, so yeah, so he was involved with that, with Chinese democracy, and then came in to

do this, which was obviously a tiny little project, really.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No one knew what was...

No one knew where this was going to go.

It must take a bit of, you know, I don't know, is it confidence?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is it just taking a risk?

Is it...

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like, oh, you've got to have real confidence.

I wonder if it's because Maynard's involved.

Yeah, there's a bit of that, isn't there, I suppose?

Yeah, yeah.

And we're Tool massive at the time, because Tool weren't ever really my thing, if that makes

any sense, because I was...

Yeah.

It was a bit too weird for me, you know?

Like, I like weird stuff, but Tool was a bit like, oh, I don't know, I like it.

They were...

Because they really played with polyrhythms and, like, crazy tonality and all that sort of stuff.

They were.

There's a bit of that in this, it seeps in, but I like this, there's enough tonality to

carry it through, you know, where there's moments of atonal sort of stuff, whereas Tool

was really proggy, and I wasn't totally into that at the time, so when this came out, this

was kind of like, oh, it's the Tool guy, but these are like songs, you know?

Yeah, they were big enough, I think, at that point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tool were fairly weighty, I mean, they'd done, what, Undertow, A-N-M-A.

Yeah.

So, yeah, they were pretty big, they had their following, but like you say, they were

on the proggy end.

Yes, yeah.

Weirdo end, weren't they?

I like it.

I always remember, he always used to wear wigs.

Yeah, yeah.

For all of the band photos, so you could hardly recognise him.

But, yeah, they were, they are a band, but taller a band that I've come to, I liked them

at the time, and I would listen to, I remember going into work and listening to, if it was in

on like a Saturday, I'd take a compact disc in, and then I'd, do you know what I mean,

I'd listen to them.

Yeah, it'd be on loop.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, just, and only one, I'd have one CD on for like four hours or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I remember taking...

Oh, those were the days, weren't they?

I remember that.

That was like my car.

Yeah.

It was nice, I was.

I had that Audi that I always gush about.

I liked your Audi.

Yeah.

And it only ever had one CD in it through the entire period of time I owned it.

Probably still in it.

Yeah.

And it was Fear of a Blank Planet.

Oh, Porcupine Tree.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that.

It's like da-da-da-da-da-da.

But, yeah, I, you know, I did listen to Tool back then.

I wouldn't say I loved them.

No.

I think I love Tool more now.

Yeah.

Then I'm more, I'm far more likely to listen to Tool now than, than, than then.

I don't know what's weird, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Some albums I've kind of grown away from a little bit, I think, from that time.

But some of them, yeah, I've gotten more, I guess, more, more love for a few.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Than, than, than back then.

This is one, Med and Om, is definitely one of them.

Yeah.

That is, is, and I probably not listened to it for probably two years.

No, I'm going to say it's been probably longer than that for me, yeah.

And it, and it.

Well, I was really excited when, when you suggested last week, because it was like, oh, I get to

go back to that.

I get to go back to that.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

But it's cool.

It's, I, I, there's something, there's so many of these albums, I think, that were amazing.

Yeah.

And, I don't know, it's, it's not like forgetting them necessarily, but it's like, because you're,

as soon as you listen, you, like, it floods back and you remember it.

Yeah, yeah.

But you're like, I, you know, sometimes I sit down at my computer and I think, what am I

going to listen to?

Yes.

And like, I don't know.

I don't know where to start.

I don't know where, do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And, and I think the lovely thing about doing this show is that we get that, like, you get that

voice, but often for me, it kind of sets me off down that scene.

It gives me kind of a, you know, like a year or a period.

Yeah.

And you leap off.

Yeah.

Because you're like, oh, I remember they went out on tour with Nine Inch Nails and, and then

you listen to Nine Inch Nails and then you, do you know what I mean?

Then you, then you kind of remembering, you know, all the things Trent Reznor said and

all the stunts that he pulled and you think, oh, that was, you know, people don't do that

anymore.

No, no, exactly.

And so it's, it's, it's, yeah, I think it's super cool.

And it's, I don't know, a bit of a privilege really to go and dick about and do it.

So.

To pray, to pray, to pray. To shine my light. You can't wait to forgive you. How long is to let it go? How long is you need?

Forgiven. Show me no way to let go. Show me no way to forgive you. How long is you let it go? How long is you being forgiven? Show me no way to let go.

Oh, baby. I'm just praying for you. Show me no way to forgive you.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

Show me no way to let go.

I think most of the songs in general are degrees maybe of forgiveness.

For lack of a better word.

Forgiveness and healing.

Some of them are more aggressive and finger pointing.

Which is an early stage of a relationship dynamic.

Where you're really angry.

Kind of putting the blame somewhere else in some way.

Then there's some of the songs that are just kind of exploring

A more intimate approach to those relationships.

So I think for me one of the songs that is closer to that completion.

Of that whole dynamic of forgiveness.

Where you kind of forgive yourself.

For the most part of whatever thing that you set up in a way.

What you bring to the table.

And what kind of makes things awkward when trying to relate to people.

So I think Thomas and Brenyer are my favorite songs on the record.

That really kind of.

To me are more of a completion of.

Of what all that other stuff is about.

Three Libras.

I know we've only just listened to a song.

Yeah.

But that.

Oh.

That song is just a work of art from start to finish.

And I didn't know until today.

Yeah.

That Paz did the strings work on it.

Because I always absolutely adored.

These kind of sliding glissando kind of string.

The string work on it.

Yeah.

The way that that works at the beginning.

And if that's Paz.

Because I thought it was like.

It feels like a string section.

Yeah.

And if it's kind of overlaid violins that she's done.

Or whatever it was.

It's incredible isn't it?

The work is.

Do you know the bit that's incredible about that one.

Is that was one of the lead singles.

Yeah.

Really strongly.

And you think as a.

Um.

Yeah.

It's not a basket case is it?

No.

It's not.

It smells like teen spirit.

It's not.

Yeah.

Not like a.

Mainstream rock song.

No.

But it seemed to.

To land really well.

There's a.

There are a few bands that do this.

And you just think.

I don't.

Like I like.

You know.

Not that I don't like it.

But I think.

I didn't expect other people to like it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When Slipknot became massive.

Yes.

Yeah.

I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But.

You know.

You don't expect a room full of people to like it.

No.

And this was one of them.

And especially this.

The three Libras.

It's.

It's just such a.

Such an incredible song.

Like.

Delicate and thoughtful.

Yeah.

And.

Um.

There's like a.

Um.

To the right.

Word to.

To describe it.

But it's.

It's not.

It's like a mood in a song.

Yeah.

It's.

Chorus verse.

No.

No.

You know what I mean.

It's this.

It's this.

Yeah.

Just this.

This animal.

This kind of.

Thing.

And I would direct.

Your attention.

Although.

The listeners attention.

To the blog article on this.

Just because.

It's so beautifully written.

And.

And.

Like.

It talks about.

The actual music.

Theory terms in there.

Like musical ideas.

You know.

Like Dorian.

Like different modes.

It talks about.

Kind of the way.

That the rhythms work.

On the album.

Where it's.

Um.

I can't remember the exact word.

And it uses in the blog.

That you did.

But.

It.

It describes the.

Um.

The crossing over.

Of you know.

Different cycles.

Of time signatures.

Against the drum.

Between the drums.

And guitar.

A record.

That's commercially successful.

But it's not.

It's not as.

Like.

The time signatures.

Aren't as.

Like.

Out there.

At all.

Would eventually go.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean.

It was.

Where they would be.

Doing all kinds of.

We have to write down.

You have to have a.

You have to have a.

Jotopad with you.

To count the beats.

To keep track of the time signatures.

It's brilliant.

Like.

There's kind of.

Abstract maths.

Brought into.

You know.

Yeah.

There's just something.

Really cool.

Yeah.

They make.

They.

It managed to be cool.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

They managed to do it.

Without.

Without being.

You know.

I got bullied.

For study of maths.

Yeah.

You can.

You can wear a tool t-shirt.

And you're.

You don't get bullied.

You're all right.

But this.

Is interesting.

Because it's like.

I don't know.

About the time signature.

So I don't.

I don't know.

I think if they did maths in music.

It's more like wizardry.

Isn't it?

Wizardry.

I don't think there's any like.

Super weird time signatures in this.

No.

But it's.

It's like.

I think it's like the phrasing.

And structure that's different here.

It's got a.

It's got a.

It's got a.

Like a certain feel to it.

That doesn't.

Feel like a rock record.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it.

It's.

It's the way it makes you feel as well.

Yeah.

This record.

It's kind of.

Um.

I think that.

I think you've just nailed it.

It's so simple when you put it like that.

But.

It's the way this record makes you feel.

And I think that's the bit that.

Uh.

Uh.

People.

Came around it.

Yeah.

For.

You know.

Yeah.

The way.

The way they.

Embrace the record.

The way they embrace the band.

It was because the music made them feel a certain way.

It.

Yeah.

It makes you want to listen to it again.

I'll.

It's.

Cause it's interesting.

There are.

There are some.

Albums.

Like.

You know.

I don't know.

Like Green Day Records right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's pretty mega.

Um.

The.

This.

This doesn't make me feel.

I don't want to go.

No.

Kick my wheelie bin over.

Right.

But it makes.

I don't know.

If we kind of.

It's like being cuddled with.

Yeah.

That's exactly what I was going to say.

It's like being connected.

Yeah.

It's about connection.

This.

This record is.

There is something.

It's about being connected to something bigger.

That's what this record makes you feel.

Yeah.

It makes you feel everything's all right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Everything will be fine.

Just listen to.

Just listen to the record.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a.

I.

And I do wonder how much of that is like intentional.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What came out.

What came out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's what came out.

It was not like this kind of intentional.

I want to make.

Yeah.

I kind of want to make like a.

A rock.

Um.

Classical.

Yeah.

Piece of music.

It was.

Um.

I don't know.

Just walk.

Yeah.

What popped out on the day kind of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then.

Yeah.

And then that's what got developed.

So.

It's so clever.

Yeah.

You know the bits where you've got.

Um.

Like the.

Uh.

The different layers.

On different layers.

To produce.

Like.

Chord structures.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the combination of them on the different layers.

It's dead clever.

Mm.

Can we play three Libras now?

Yeah.

Best player.

Best player.

Best player.

Yes.

And you flew.

With it.

And on your back.

A name.

In your.

Recollection.

Down.

Among a billion.

Same.

Difficult.

Not to feel a little bit.

Disappointed.

Passed over.

When I look.

Right.

I am blue.

See you naked.

But oblivious.

And you don't.

See.

Me.

And I threw.

You were really obvious.

Just to see.

If there's.

If there's.

More.

Be.

I threw.

You were really obvious.

Just to see.

If there's.

More.

Be.

And I threw.

You were really obvious.

Just to see.

If there's.

More.

Be.

I threw.

You were really obvious.

Just to see.

If there's.

More.

Be.

I threw.

You were really obvious.

Just to see.

If there's.

More.

Be.

More.

Behind.

The.

Eyes.

Of.

A.

Fallen.

Angel.

Eyes.

Of.

A.

Tragedy.

Here.

I am.

Expecting.

Just a little bit.

Too.

Much.

From.

The.

Wounded.

But I.

See.

See.

Through.

It.

All.

See.

Through.

To see.

You.

Cause.

I'm.

Through.

You.

Beyond me.

I.

Still.

See.

What.

Comes.

Behind.

The.

Eyes.

Of.

A.

For.

Angel.

Eyes.

Of.

A.

Tragedy.

The.

Oh.

Well.

Oh.

Well.

Apparently.

Apparently.

Nothing.

Apparently.

Nothing.

At.

All.

Apparently.

Apparently.

Nothing.

Apparently.

Nothing.

At.

All.

You don't, you don't, you don't blame me.

Come back and you go back to your job in the warehouse, you know, packing boxes and stuff and hope that you get a good sleep.

on a tour opening up for Someone Cool, you know?

And eventually we did.

We only really, I mean, we were a lucky, lucky band,

and I wonder why, it's probably who was,

who produced the record had so much, you know, to do with it,

and the label that they were on, that Prick was on.

It was just like, we never should have had,

we were so spoiled, basically, you know?

We did one, I think one shitty club tour,

and then the next thing you know,

we're like opening up for Nine Inch Nails

and Marilyn Manson in arenas.

And then, like the next thing,

we're opening up for Nine Inch Nails and David Bowie,

you know, and amphitheaters all over the country,

and doing that whole thing.

I think we're on track to have a shorter podcast.

I want to talk about the album cover.

No, we're not.

We probably are.

One of the things that I, I always loved the,

I always loved this album cover.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's, I think it's really, really great.

It was designed by Billy Howard, right?

We talked about earlier.

But all the glyphs and the typography spells out a perfect circle,

so they all mean something.

Yeah, yeah.

And I find it, I, I, my eldest is studying.

People don't use that word enough.

What?

Glyphs.

Glyphs.

What a great word glyphs is.

Glyphs.

Glyphs.

Glyphs.

My eldest is doing ancient Greek at school.

Oh, wow.

Doing a, you can do GCSE in it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he's doing a GCSE in, in, in ancient Greek.

I mean, he's very sciencey.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And when he was picking his options, he said to me, he was asking what,

like any advice.

Yeah.

As, as, as, you know, as a, as a distinguished mathematician in the field,

what's, what do you think?

And I said, dude, the, the, the, I, I got to probably 25 without knowing

the actual names for Greek letters.

Yeah.

So in my head, I remembered shit as squiggly squiggly thing with a hat.

Like I genuinely had like weird, because I didn't know what they had no idea

what they were.

And by the time you're at that point in your degree, you can't raise your hand

and say, does anyone know what that means?

What's the squiggly squiggly?

So I just.

Yeah.

To be fair.

I don't know now.

Come to think of it.

I don't know.

I don't know what any of those things are, but, but it's interesting.

Well, anyway, and they said, Oh, I'm going to, he said, I'm going to do.

He said, there's an ancient Greek thing and there's only two other children doing it.

So I'm going to.

Wow.

I know.

I thought that was really cool.

Um, that's just to be cleverer than you though, isn't it?

So that he knows those.

He's so much cleverer.

He's so much cleverer than I am.

Definitely.

So much cleverer than I was at that age.

Nevermind.

He's cleverer than I am now.

Probably.

But, but there, there, there's a, I think there's a lot of Greek in this.

Yeah.

You know, those symbols in there.

Yeah.

Very.

And that's the thing I love about you.

Like, cause I've been on the other side of this when you're so inside a project and inside

an album and inside a world and it's every waking thought.

Yeah.

And that's evidently what that was for this guy.

For Billy.

I think so.

I, yeah.

If, if, if, if, if those kind of, if that kind of level of conceptuality, I don't know if

that's a word.

Is now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is where this thing came from.

Then, then he was in it.

He was like, he was.

Yeah.

He wasn't in the normal world.

He was in this place.

And I think that's really cool.

People like that, aren't they?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hitchhiker's Guide.

Like he, he, he was just so far inside that place.

Yeah.

That, that world.

It's really interesting for those.

I mean, we're on a bit of a tangent now, but, but for those that, uh, like the Hitchhiker's

Guide and Douglas Adams, he worked on a bunch of sci-fi stuff for the BBC.

And there are things in the Hitchhiker's Guide that would go on in Hitchhiker's Guide.

There were like little riffs.

That he put in.

Yeah.

Put in like Doctor Who and stuff, uh, in the seventies and stuff in the eighties.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No one, like no one knew.

Do you know what I mean?

And you, you know, that he, like, like you mentioned, he's living in, but that's, that's

his world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the only thing that he thinks about is that one thing.

Mm.

And then like work is just kind of getting in this.

Oh, I've got to go and, you know, got to go and do some sci-fi stuff on the BBC.

Yes.

I would go into work and do his thing.

But actually.

Is that where Dirk Gently came from then?

Doing that kind of stuff?

Oh, I don't know.

Mm.

I wonder.

I don't know.

But I do, I do like, I do like that kind of thing where this is, it's not just like

if I was doing an album cover, I'd just make stuff up.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm not sure I would, I would have the.

Yeah.

It's like Klingon in Star Trek is an actual language, isn't it?

Yeah.

Somebody created an actual language for it and people you can go and learn and speak.

You can actually, it's on Duolingo.

Klingon is.

You can learn Klingon on Duolingo.

And I mean, if you think of it like, like, like entertainment wise, it serves no purpose.

No, there's no.

Is that the same with Elvish then?

With Lord of the Rings?

I don't know.

Maybe.

Yeah.

But, but it's like, it serves no purpose, right?

It's got no, like, you know what I mean?

Like the, you'd probably not going to enjoy the movie more or the album more because, because

of, of that, but it can't, I don't know if somehow or other it makes it better.

Do you know what I mean?

Once you bought into that world and you bought into this album and it's out, you've got, then,

then it makes it, you know what I mean?

You, I guess you start to realize that and it's like the depth and complexity.

Yes.

Yeah.

And the layers and the layers is probably the key word with this one, I guess.

Yeah.

Um, there's so many bits and parts to it, you know, and the more you dig, the more interesting

it gets and the people involved and the stories of the people involved.

Yeah.

I just, I just, I don't know.

There's, there's, um, some albums have got no, some albums, I think I've got no story.

No.

They're great albums.

Yeah.

But you, you just, I want, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like when Tommy, Tommy and Gina come up and living on a prayer and then 15 years later,

they appear in lyrics again.

They do.

Don't they?

And, and like everyone who, everyone who's in the world, they're like, Oh, Tommy and Gina.

Ah, everyone knows Tommy and Gina.

Don't they?

Everybody knows the lyrics to John Bon Jovi song.

That is just the way it is.

Um, another thing as well, which I wanted to point out to you, um, their stage.

You raised your glasses then.

I did.

You looked at me with them.

You did the teacher glasses.

I did.

I looked over my glasses at you.

Um, so it'd be very difficult.

I can't read my tablet and see your face at the same time.

Oh, I thought it was to get my attention.

No, definitely not.

Like it doesn't be naughty.

It is.

I'm sure I've talked about this before, but when I, when I do public speaking on the

stage, they give you monitor.

You know, you have stage monitors to blast noise in your ears.

Yeah.

As public speakers, they give you like, imagine like a big screen.

Yeah.

Okay.

By your feet.

Yes.

So you can have your notes.

Yeah.

Doing this stuff.

Um, and I can't see.

I can, I can put my glasses on and read them.

Yeah.

Or I can see.

Yeah.

I can't do both.

I can't do both.

No.

Um, initially you're like, well, obviously I wear my glasses so I can read my notes.

And then you do that and then realize it's really weird.

Like, cause you can't see anybody.

Yeah.

So then you take your glasses off.

Yeah.

And then you realize you're putting your glasses on and off.

Yeah.

And then there'll be some like, I know there'll be some like youngling in the corner waving

at you cause you'd like, that's not in the, that's not in the manual of how you're

supposed to do public speaking.

Some youngling.

Yeah.

50 year old dude waggling his glasses.

Um, anyway, the live, the live thing.

Um, also it's purely about being able to see then.

Yeah.

Oh, I thought it was about kind of like.

Oh shit.

You're not.

I can't see.

I can see.

There are words.

I can see there are words.

And if I squint really hard.

Yeah.

Tablet.

Like about that.

Yeah.

I can read it.

It's really hard work.

I thought it was more about like, you know, focus.

Like you take glasses off and then suddenly.

What can you see?

What can you see without your glasses off?

Without nothing.

I can't see close things or far things or anything.

Do they irritate you though?

What glasses?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I absolutely would buy that clockwork orange thing.

But if anyone goes near my eyes, I'll punch them.

Just kill them.

Yeah.

I was in spec savers.

Yeah.

All dead.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was in spec savers.

Yeah.

And the girl in there, she's lovely.

So nice.

And they said, should we do a contact lens trial?

Right.

Yeah.

So I said, well, yeah, let's give it a go.

You know, we might as well give it a go.

Yeah.

Um, and, and, and she was absolutely brilliant.

She was so patient with me.

So gentle.

Yeah.

And I sat in the chair and she went, right.

And then we'll just, we'll just get this.

And then we'll go.

And then she went near my eye with her finger.

And I was like, if you don't move that finger now, like you're going out of that window.

I didn't say that, but I just, I, what I said was, don't think this is going to work for me.

How British is that?

How British is that?

It's not quite what I'd hoped for.

So yeah, no, things don't go near my eyes.

That's, uh, eye drops.

We're like, I had to have eye drops for a while.

Yeah.

And that's not the way, mate.

It's not, it's not happening.

And, you know, Gemma was sort of like, Oh, should I help you?

And I'm like, absolutely no chance.

He's just fishing for dead bodies around him.

Another one, Nick.

Anyway, I was trying to get to this bit here where they're very well today.

There aren't many tangents.

They're very well behaved.

The stage presence, the stage presence.

Sorry.

2000 was very deliberate.

Yeah.

And I've read a few articles about this, but the band stand in balanced stage plots.

So symmetrical.

Oh, cool.

And the lighting, they have like very specific and thought through lighting of, of the, the, um, highlights the silhouettes of the instruments.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, and I just think it's, I dunno.

It's really thought through, isn't it?

Careful.

It's done carefully.

I think that's the thing.

This is a really thoughtful record.

Not that.

Yeah.

I mean, I dunno.

Um, yeah, like, I know the, um, like the Donners, for example, right?

Yeah.

I, I, I love the Donners, but you know, one of the reasons that that stuff works is because

it's not thought.

Yes.

It's not over thought through.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's funny.

It's aggressive.

It's, you know, um, but you know that they didn't, you know, somebody agonize over the,

you know, the, the phrasing of a particular section or, you know, or particular, it's like,

that sounds banging.

Let's do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This sounds like it's been, this is an album that I think has been agonized over like every,

every bit of this record has been, you know, considered.

And probably, you know, talked about and should it, should it be there?

Should it be shorter?

Should it be longer?

Should it be louder?

I, I, it's, and every, you know, I think that comes through in every part of the album

cover.

Yeah.

You know, and so it's very rare, I think.

I'm thinking like the other, like Rush do that a little bit as well.

Yeah.

I think Pink Floyd.

Yeah.

Very much.

So, um, you're tall.

I think that comes through.

I'm trying to think of other bands that are, do you know what I mean?

Where, where it feels that meticulously.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Created.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm not, I'm not saying that's like necessarily.

I think it's probably quite a rare thing to be able to be so meticulous and still have

it sound incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I think if you, um, you know, if you over focus on something, you kind of lose

some of the, the magic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's true.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's when, that's when you get Chinese democracy, isn't it?

That's well, yeah.

Nine years.

And that album's like, all right.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, Chinese democracy is a brilliant example of an album that I should

have been released in 2000 and it would have been right.

And then Axl should have done that.

No, that should have been a, um, solo, solo Axl record.

Yeah.

And then he should have done another one in 2003, another one to that.

And we might've had a good one by 2008.

Yeah.

You know, once he'd figured out how to be Axl and be a solo and, you know, um, be a solo

artist.

Uh, but yeah, you're, that, that's a really good example of that, that kind of over focus

maybe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, whereas yeah, this, this just, I don't know, it's weird, isn't it?

Doesn't it?

Cause it feel, it makes you feel like it was effortless.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And evidently it's not because of the amount of effort that's gone into it.

Yeah.

But when you, and then you scratch beneath the surface and you realize just how, um, you

know, how clever.

Yeah.

It is.

Yeah.

And the other interesting thing with this is that a lots of these proggy albums, they

don't appeal to the mainstream necessarily, you know, they, they appeal to the math nerds

who like the fact that it's, you know, some kind of numeric progression.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, but this, this is, this is one where I don't know, like, like, like three libras is

a brilliant, that's just a great song.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the hollow.

Yeah.

Judith as well.

Those are the three singles.

Yeah.

And they were all mainstream successes.

They all landed on the U S billboard 200.

They all landed really, really strongly.

Um, no one had a clue who a perfect circle were no.

And then, but the three lead singles just landed really strongly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so interesting, isn't it?

It is.

It's not, I mean, this was around the, I mean, Nickelback came just after this.

Yeah.

How you remind me and never again and that kind of stuff.

Mm.

You can see why those songs landed.

Yeah.

You can see why those songs were, were incredible in the charts cause they appeal.

They're so broad.

You don't need to.

No, no.

You don't need to pay any attention.

Mm.

I think the, the, the, the magic with this album and, and the songs here.

Mm.

Is that you, you don't need to pay attention.

You don't need to listen and you'll get an enjoyment out of the album, but the more attention

you pay, like the more you get back.

Yeah.

If that makes sense.

Do you know what I mean?

Like the, the, the more time you give this album, the more it repays you, I think.

Yeah.

No, it's a great, a great, um, yeah, that's really interesting.

And, and, and that got going back to what, what, what I felt and what I said at the start

is the idea of like, I, you know, I used to really love this album.

Then I forgot about it.

Then I listened again.

And then, and then, and then I, and then I love it even more now.

Like it's, like it's become something else to me and means so much more because.

Yeah.

You know, the, my, the way that my music's changed, taste has changed over time.

And, and what, what I found within this record, you know?

I think so.

I think, you know, and, uh, again, I was talking to somebody on, on our socials about this,

but like, like at the time you were driven by, like, especially in my teenage years, you

were driven by what your mates listened to and you didn't want to be ostracized.

And that was a big deal.

You know, it's like, as a grownup, I can, I can say that I like an album or don't like

an album.

And I don't care if anyone agrees with me.

I mean, it's not, I've done, you know what I mean?

You like what you like.

It doesn't matter.

When you're 14.

Yeah.

If you say, oh, I really like this and your mates don't.

Yeah.

That you've got no mates.

Yeah.

I mean, you're, you're made fun of forever.

And that, I think that influenced what I listened to a lot.

And, you know, there were certainly albums that I, yeah, I missed.

Yeah.

Certainly, you know, what I've really enjoyed is the, you know, we did the UK albums, the

kind of the, I guess the underground rock scene.

Yeah.

While Britpop was happening.

We kind of covered that like therapy and, and Skunk and Nancy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There was a bunch of, there was a bunch of those records that I didn't really connect

with at the time.

And the going back.

Yeah.

That's when the discovery happens.

Yeah.

Rediscovery.

Yeah, exactly.

I, yeah, I don't know.

I mean, this was a bit later for me.

So I, I kind of, I was, I was growing up enough to just like it and listen to it.

But what was popular at the time was Linkin Park.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm trying to think what else was big at the time.

But, um, you know, it was that kind of, this was peak new metal, wasn't it?

Corn and that kind of stuff.

It's interesting because there's so much more.

Not that, you know, there's a lot of the new metal stuff that I did like,

but there's a lot more substance to this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

But it's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like we said right at the beginning,

I don't think I realised quite how good this was at the time.

No, I agree.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.

Should we do some facts?

Yes, let's do facts.

I'll get my fact table off of the blog.

I like that you've, on this blog you put,

this is Neil's facts table.

Neil's facts table, yeah, it's basically so I can find it.

So released 23rd of May, 2000.

If you have a different opinion, that's good.

But I got that from Wikipedia and that's what it said.

It hit platinum in the US within four months,

which is not bad going.

I keep seeing quotes that say

this was the best-selling debut rock record of all time.

Can I just say that?

It doesn't feel like a debut.

It doesn't, does it?

It feels like a really established kind of like,

they've been together 10 years and this is their masterpiece.

I do wonder if that was kind of some of Maynard's influence from Tool.

Yeah.

It's definitely a Tool-y vibe.

Yeah, because they've been on a ride beforehand,

so kind of bring that experience in.

It's like, it feels, if there's ingredients,

Tool is an ingredient here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it doesn't sound like a Tool record.

No.

Do you know what I mean?

But it's got that same considered...

Yeah.

I suppose in a similar way to the way that Audio Slave one came about.

Yeah, yeah.

Because that felt like a really established band.

It did, yeah, yeah.

And maybe it is.

Maybe it's the culmination of the experience of the different band members,

but just the stars align with their particular outfit.

Yeah, and they, yeah, that's a really good point.

A title meaning murder noms is French for sea of names,

which is great.

And then, obviously, the track names, Magdalena, Orestes, Thomas, and Barena.

Core creators, we had Billy Howardell,

who's a producer and guitarist, did the album cover.

Yeah, yeah.

Most of the things.

He was kind of the driving force behind it.

Maynard, James Keenan of Tool, wrote the melodies and the lyrics.

Paz Linchanton did bass violin.

We talked about her.

She did all kinds of epic stuff.

So amazing.

And the Pixies, I've got this real drive to do a Pixies album now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Troy Van Leeuwen and Josh Freeze on drums.

And, of course, Josh Freeze recently,

I mean, he's quite a key conversation point to them in it, isn't he?

Because he was drumming for Foos for a bit.

Oh, the Foos Fighters, yeah.

And now he's quit again, hasn't he?

He's in Nine Inch Nails.

Well, I think they asked him to-

Yes, back in Nine Inch Nails.

But they're swapped.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's the Nine Inch Nails drum and there's now in the Foos

and he's in the Nine Inch Nails.

It's cool, isn't it, that is?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Job swap.

What position do you want to job swap between those two bands?

The original drummer was Tim Alexander,

who is still on the recording for The Hollow.

Yeah, yeah.

He's from Primus, isn't he?

Primus, yeah.

I like Primus, actually.

I've not heard enough Primus.

They were a band that I did not like.

I say I didn't like.

I didn't get it.

Yeah, yeah.

I think it was the artwork and the vibe.

Yeah, yeah.

I just thought, oh, that's not me.

No, yeah.

I really quite like him now.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Lots of the reviews of how they kind of talked about it,

but it's almost like art rock is how it gets described,

like heavy art rock, which I don't know,

curious descriptions from people.

Artwork was designed by Billy Howardale,

stylised calligraphy and cryptic sigils and glyphs.

And the idea behind it was to appear timeless and mysterious.

Yeah, they nailed that.

Have you watched Severance yet?

No.

The work is important and mysterious.

Mysterious and important.

Is that what that is?

Yeah, it's really good.

I need to watch Severance.

I'm on foundation in the minute.

So we just throw foundation in the bin.

Severance is, Severance is.

Foundation's turning into a Perfect Circle album.

Oh, is it?

Is it good?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I watched the first series of foundation

and I know it's about halfway through, I think.

Yeah.

No, it's getting good now.

Is it?

Yeah, it's interesting.

I lost track of it.

It was one of those things I really wanted to love.

Yeah.

Because it's about a mathematician at the beginning

and I was like, I desperately want to love this.

And I just didn't.

Well, it was a bit slow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not really sure what's going on.

I think for me,

the whole of the second season was a bit slow.

Right.

But this one's like, ooh.

Perked up a bit.

Here we go.

Because time's not linear in it as well.

I like that.

And that's interesting.

I find that interesting.

Timey-wimey.

Yeah.

So Severance is a bit,

so Severance,

they kind of don't really know what's going on.

Yeah.

And there's this thing,

obviously they've got this job to do

and it says the work is mysterious and important.

Okay.

That's what it keeps saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they all know it.

Yeah.

They've kind of almost been brainwashed,

which I quite like.

So, yeah.

Because that, yeah,

three-body problem's not far away either.

No, I'm excited.

That is,

I'm really scared that they're going to mess that up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It just got,

just to the end.

Yeah.

Of a three-body problem.

Yeah.

It was good.

It was like good and solid,

good and solid.

I don't like those things where they mess with science.

Yeah.

And maths.

Yeah.

I think it's really,

it's important to me.

Yeah.

Get the science right.

Yeah.

Get the maths right.

It needs to be like,

if you're going to,

if you're going to build a series on science and maths,

it needs to be believable.

And it was.

Yeah.

And then it got right to the end

and I was like,

I'm not really sure.

And then what else upset me was then everybody,

you know,

the,

like the,

the armchair experts.

Yeah.

You know,

like if there's,

if there's,

if the politics is about like,

like nuclear weapons or viruses,

they're an expert in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then they all started to talk about what the three-body problem was.

Yeah.

And you,

you know,

and you kind of cry,

you die a little bit inside.

You're just like.

Because they've got it wrong.

I don't think you understand what this is.

And that upset me hugely.

So,

but I'm looking forward to that.

I think that's going to be dead good.

Yeah.

I just got severance then,

don't I?

Oh,

severance will blow your mind.

Severance,

you,

you'll,

you'll just not sleep for a day.

It's that kind of,

it's dark.

It's,

oh,

it's dark.

It's kind of thought provoking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's,

yeah,

it's one of those.

It's a,

there's a lot,

there's a lot to it,

a lot to unpack.

And it's,

the other thing I love about it is that kind of retro futuristic kind of,

they've got the computers in there.

Yeah.

It's just like,

it's got this kind of seventies vibe to the hardware.

Yeah.

But it's kind of like set in the future.

It's dead weird.

Proper.

Lovely.

I forgot where it was.

Oh,

artwork.

So artwork for Medinoms.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Timeless and mysterious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he,

he did that stylus calligraphy.

It spells out a perfect circle.

The,

the,

the glyphs and stuff on there.

Um,

hidden track.

Sigils.

You said that word.

Sigils.

Hidden track.

Certain CD editions include a low volume medley after the final listed track.

I don't think I ever caught that.

No,

I don't know.

I'm a fan of a secret track as well.

Tried to find out the specifics.

If you know the specifics,

write into us on,

uh,

post,

post box.

Snail mailers.

Yeah.

Just write ruffology on it.

It'll get to us.

Check it in.

I don't know.

It might,

it might,

I don't know where,

I don't know where it will end up if you did that,

but,

um,

but there is a hidden track on some of them.

I,

I don't,

I couldn't find out a huge amount about it.

You,

you hear references to it.

I was looking on discogs and I couldn't find out a massive amount,

but,

um,

apparently it's quite cool.

um,

formation story.

We talked about this.

Howardell,

uh,

uh,

did home demos in the late nineties.

Yeah.

And because he was sharing a house with Maynard,

uh,

he heard them.

And then,

uh,

there's a quote,

something like saying,

I can hear myself singing those songs.

And then,

and then they,

um,

then they,

they got together.

The project was Howardells,

not Maynard.

And,

uh,

yeah,

that wasn't interesting.

The press got that a bit messed up at the time.

Um,

absolutely stormed Billboard 200 when it was released,

did really,

really well.

Um,

they were marked as this kind of super group at the time,

which,

uh,

again,

kind of quite,

quite interesting.

Which is interesting because I don't get that vibe.

Like the same with audio slave.

Yeah.

I said about that earlier.

I didn't get the vibe that that was a super,

it wasn't a super group that was made for the purpose of like putting everyone together

and look at us,

look at us being a super group.

It was more like the stars aligned.

That's the only way I can,

I can put it in my mind.

It was like they were in the right place at the right time and they were making music together

and then this happened.

Yeah.

I think a lot of the best albums are like that.

I think the idea of super group makes it feel like it's curated.

Yes.

And I don't think this was curated.

I think this was like happenstance.

I think it's basically just two guys that met each other out and doing music and stuff

and then.

Yeah.

They sort of hit it off creatively.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The studio,

the production,

we haven't really talked massively about the production.

No,

that's true.

It is incredible as well.

When we,

sorry,

what I will say is,

you know,

it's about the dynamic range earlier.

Yeah.

obviously when we're editing this podcast together,

we see the waveforms.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And to,

to back up what you said earlier about the dynamic range,

you know,

when we played,

um,

um,

three Libras earlier,

the intro to that,

there is almost no waveform there.

There's visible.

Yeah.

And then suddenly when it kicks in,

it regrows.

So that,

that just shows the level of dynamic range of the song.

So it's,

it's clean mid gain amps.

Um,

I think minimal compression.

I don't think there was that much compression going on here.

I think there's just a lot of layering after layer after layer.

Um,

yeah,

it's interesting.

It's not,

it doesn't sound like,

like an American rock record of the era,

which would have been like thick,

really thick.

I mean,

it's post grunge,

you know,

this,

this for me was like peak American radio rock.

It's kind of,

it's kind of Nickelback and Seether and Stained.

And,

you know,

these,

if you,

you,

um,

any,

any bar in America,

you went and sat in that stuff would have been playing right.

And it was for me,

that was kind of that peak,

you know,

you had a grunge time and you had to hair metal time.

This was kind of American radio friendly rock.

And they were just incredible at it.

This is so many like,

I mean,

Nickelback are incredible band.

Yes.

Yeah.

Really,

really great,

great records that they put out.

Um,

but the,

the,

the U S were bang,

hanging this stuff out.

Yeah.

Really,

really high quality stuff.

Um,

sounded nothing like this at all.

This was properly on its own.

Yep.

Um,

it,

you're into,

in terms of production,

I think,

um,

uh,

yeah.

Oh,

and,

oh,

live notes as well.

So,

so in the live tour,

they would often play the album in full.

They would just play the album.

Yeah.

I like all that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

And just,

and just keep it.

So,

um,

yeah.

Uh,

uh,

so,

uh,

but you,

you don't get it,

do you?

You know what I mean?

Like,

so it's a debut album.

Yeah.

Um,

and like Guns N' Roses went out on the back of Appetite.

So they didn't have many more songs.

No.

They just play in a weird order.

Mm.

but,

but APC would do this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there'd be some dynamic shifts and stuff in there,

but basically that it would be the album.

Yeah.

I just,

there's something really nice about that.

I went to see,

uh,

you know,

the space center in Leicester.

Yes.

They've got a planetarium.

Right,

right,

right.

Which is a,

which is a projector that points on a domed ceiling.

Yes.

Uh,

very cool.

Yeah.

I went to see,

uh,

the dark side of the moon played in full by an orchestra and a band.

and stuff.

Cool.

Um,

while you watched space.

Nice.

On the ceiling.

So you laid back in,

in the,

in the dome.

They switched the,

they switched the lights off so you can see,

and you're just kind of floating through space.

That's amazing.

While the dark side of the moon played.

And it was just incredible.

Yeah.

Really,

really incredible.

Um,

and I can,

you know,

I can totally imagine this working.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The same.

You know what I mean?

It would have the same.

We should speak to them about this.

You should.

The letter,

the space center.

You should say,

let's have listening parties.

I just want to,

can I just come in and listen to my album?

In,

in your dome.

Yeah.

But just put space on.

In the thunder dome.

I mean,

it's really cool.

Yeah.

But it's got that kind of vibe to it for me.

It's kind of got this kind of almost,

um,

yeah,

space,

space rock almost.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it is,

it's kind of,

it's,

yeah,

yeah.

It really does put me in that same,

same place of mind,

same space,

same,

same,

um,

state of mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um,

and it,

and it reminds me hugely of that,

of,

of dark side of the moon.

Yeah.

Kind of flow.

Um,

but yeah,

very cool.

and I,

I love,

I love that.

So if you're a band and you've got a debut album and you're out on tour and you're massive,

just play in order.

Um,

and that's it for facts.

Good facts.

No more facts.

There probably are more facts,

but that's what I've got.

Shall we play a song?

Yeah.

And then talk about next week,

which tool album we're going to play next,

which tool album we're going to play.

Yeah,

exactly.

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah.

Right.

See you in a minute.

See you in a minute.

You're such an inspiration for the ways that I will never, ever choose to be.

Oh,

so many ways for me to show you how you're sick has abandoned you.

Fuck your mind.

You're alone.

You're crazy.

Even the answer on you had him.

Question.

Why?

Do you pray?

Never try.

Never.

Lay down the field.

Never thought you question why.

It's better like you killed someone.

It's not like you drove a evil spirit to his side.

Praise the one who left you broken down and paralyzed.

He did it all for you.

Oh,

Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

We did it all for you

We did it all for you

I've said this before I think

I miss feedback

Do you?

It's our feedback at the end of records

Because the thing is

You don't get it anymore

Yeah

Because it's all DI

It's all DI'd

And Kemper's

Yeah

I actually

I really miss it

Like

I love tone feedback

It's my favourite thing ever

The buzzy kind of

Not the buzz

No not so much that

But the kind of

You hit a chord out

And it's got a long decay on it

And then you get

So far into that decay

And then the feedback starts

And it's the most beautiful sound

In the world

I always

Love

I've seen Slayer

Millions of times

And they

They will always do that

Yeah

So there's a couple of songs

And they would just hang feedback

Yeah

All the way through the arena

If you get a nice tone

Nice good toned frequencies

It's like

Yeah

Bring that back

Proper

Sure do that

I think in the age of AI

I think it will

I think there would be a proper resurgence

Of like proper music

With good toned feedback

AI will just copy it

No way

It can't

It'll do AI

AI copy

It won't be the same

It won't be the same

Will it

I agree

It will not be the same

Right

So we are going to do

A tall album next

Why?

Because of

Maynard James Keenan

Yeah

Because he was in

This band

And that band

He was

And that band was first

But we weren't sure

Which of their first two albums

We were going to do

Were we?

So we can do

Undertow

Which was released

April 6th 1993

Yeah

And we can do

Aiyinima

Which was released

September 17th 1996

Do you have a favourite?

My favourite album is

Lateralus

Oh that's later

Which was released

May 15th 2001

Yeah

Which you can't do

That's illegal

We can't do that one yet

So we've got to choose

Between Undertow

And Aiyinima

Yeah

Now

Do we do a poll

Or do our flippy keys?

I think you should

I'm not doing a poll

Let's

So

Do you know the bit

That's really hard

Yeah

Is you've got

Sober

Yeah

On Undertow

Stink Fist

On Aiyinima

I'm going to go with

I think Undertow

Is the better of the two

Of the albums

Yeah

Flip the thing

Do the thing

Go and do

What are you going to do

What are you going to flip?

So

Riding up

Yeah

Riding up is

Undertow

Okay

Riding down is Aiyinima

Up

Undertow

Down Aiyinima

Yeah

Remember?

Yeah

Right ready

Up

Undertow

Done

Good

I like Undertow

It's

It's

Again

That's an album

I like the artwork for

It's got like the rib cage

Yes

Are they ribs?

I don't know what they

I don't know

I don't know

But it's that kind of

Red

It's that red thing

Isn't it?

Yeah

That kind of red

Yeah

The thing with like

The hooky things

The hooky red things

Yeah

Yeah

I really

Really liked that

I'm going to find out

What they were

I don't know

I got distracted

By a motorbike

Earlier didn't I

You did

Yeah

Undertow

Cover

I wonder what it's going to say

Red ribs

It's got to be ribs

They look like ribs

Yeah I reckon it's ribs

Let's go with rat

Yeah

Probably not

It should be a crown

Or something weird

So we are quite

We are a lot less

Than an hour and a half

This week

It's pretty good

We're just an hour

About an hour and 12

You can have a bit of time off

Yes

Sorry

Have a rest

Have a rest

So

All good

Thank you for listening

We don't say that enough

Actually

Thank you for listening

Honestly thank you

Particularly if you're American

Yes

You're just all over this

You lot

Yeah actually

It's interesting

This show started off

When we knew everybody

That listened to the show

Are here in the United Kingdom

And now

I think we've got

At least three times

More listeners

In the United States

Than we do

Anywhere else in the world

Yeah

Which is great

Yeah

And

Yeah

We thank you for

Joining us

I mean it's

There's so many things

That I guess

Vie for your distraction

In your time

And you know

And you choose to

You choose to listen to us

Which is mega

Yeah

So thank you

Very much for that

And thank you for joining us

In remembering

Or rediscovering

These albums

Yeah yeah yeah

And if you're not from America

You're also very welcome here

Yeah we like you as well

Yeah

We do yeah

Only Americans

Are allowed to listen

To the show

Isn't it weird

Isn't it weird

I think it's weird

I do think it's weird

Yeah I can't get my head around it

No

Because we honestly

We're just like

Sitting in a room

In Woodville

In the middle of England

Just a couple of dickheads

Yeah

Just dicking about

But yeah

It's

Yeah I don't know

It is

It's a privilege

It's

It's a really nice thing

To go and do

It's like

Do you know

I

It's easy to listen

To the same music

Over and over again

Yes

And I'm terrible

I'm really really bad

For that

I'll listen to the same

If I look at my last FM

List